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If you think trying to find an outlet for your laptop at the airport is a chore, wait until you have to find an outlet for your electric car at the hotel.
That's the quandary that faced us this evening as we rolled into Medford, Ore., our overnight stop on an 800-mile road trip in a Chevy Volt. Actually, our Volt was one of the four electric-plus-gasoline-powered cars making their way across the country as part of Chevrolet's "Volt Unplugged" tour. As the sun was about to set, we pulled into the TownePlace Suites' parking lot and headed into the hotel lobby.
Chevrolet Communications' Adam Denison asked the clerk at the desk where we should plug in the cars — and that's when the trouble began.
"I beg your pardon?" the clerk said. She hadn't heard anything about finding electrical outlets for four cars, and what's more, she didn't have any of our names on the registration list.
Actually, the clerk's quizzical reaction is probably what most electric-car drivers will face when they go on the road. To look into the issue of finding hotel plug-in power, I called around to seven Medford hotels in advance of this week's trip. The reactions ranged from "I'm sure there has to be an outlet somewhere" to "call back tomorrow" to the straightforward response I got from an establishment billed as Medford's finest hotel: "We do not have plug-ins available for hybrids."
Tonight, after working through the clerk's confusion, we found out that our reservations were actually at the TownePlace Suites' sister hotel across the parking lot, the SpringHill Suites. Both places are part of the Marriott hotel chain, one of the partners for the "Volt Unplugged" tour, so the SpringHill folks knew we were coming and had a sheet of instructions ready for us, listing the locations of electrical outlets on the building's exterior.
Simple, right? Wrong.
Looking for the outlets turned into a cross between an Easter egg hunt and a peeping-tom convention. We skulked around the perimeter of the hotel in the darkening twilight, walking through the bushes and under windows in search of places to plug in.
"If we can't plug in, we can't plug in," Denison said with a shrug.
I finally found one of the outlets near the disabled-parking places, and the other near the hotel dumpster. We decided it wouldn't be right to park our shiny new Volt in the disabled zone, so instead, the hotel let us park it right next to the front entrance. We laid out some red traffic cones, plugged in the Volt's specially designed 120-volt charging set and strapped the extension it down to the sidewalk with duct tape.
Two more outlets were found at the TownePlace, with the help of the SpringHill Suites' instructions and the TownePlace's maintenance crew. In the process, I found out that the Volt's charging cord set works best if it's the only thing plugged into an outlet, even if it's a double-socket outlet. If you try sharing an outlet with another device in the other socket, you have to cut back on the amps for charging, or risk blowing a circuit.
That's not all: The Chevy crew wanted the hotel to turn off the automatic sprinkler system for the night, just to make sure that an inconveniently placed cord set didn't get soaked. I just hope the expensive-looking set is still there in the morning when the 9- to 10-hour charging process is complete.
We spent the better part of an hour making the arrangements to plug in four cars, which made me wonder how hotels will handle the plug-in issue when there are thousands of electric cars on the road. If you're visiting your Aunt Rita, she'll probably let you run an extension cord out to your car from the front porch. But if you're staying overnight at a hotel, you might have to fight your way to an outlet — or just continue to fill 'er up at the gas station down the street. And even if the hotels are accommodating now, will they be so willing to give electricity away when 40 drivers are clamoring for overnight juice?
Am I making a mountain out of a 120-volt molehill? Or is this an electric-car complication that hasn't yet been thought completely through? Feel free to discuss this or other unintended consequences of the shift to electric vehicles in the comment section below.
Overnight mileage update: We went 490 miles today, with a gasoline top-off in Portland. 11.8 gallons of gasoline were burned, which translates to 41.5 miles per gallon. (The 32.9 miles of all-electric driving counts as a bonus in these calculations. If you subtract out those miles, that brings the mileage rating down to 38.7 miles per gallon.) If you assume that the Volt's gas tank holds 8.5 gallons, that means the car could have gone 350 miles or so without a fill-up or recharge ... which matches the range estimate that Chevrolet came up with.
Update for 10:25 a.m. ET Oct. 12: All the cars are charged up and ready to go for the second and final day of our road trip, less than 12 hours after they were plugged in. (Sorry, I didn't go out in the middle of the night to see exactly when they completed charging.) The hotel didn't have to turn off their sprinkler system. Instead, the Chevy team wrapped the cord set in plastic, just to make sure no moisture got into its electronic innards. I did the same thing a year ago with the extension cords for our Christmas lights. I guess great minds think alike. ...
Follow msnbc.com's Alan Boyle and Jim Seida as they take an 800-mile "Electric Road Trip" in a Chevy Volt ... and file their dispatches from the road. Boyle is also tweeting about the trip as @b0yle on Twitter.
Leave a Comment:
Next time, please take along a Kill-a-Watt meter (e.g. http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3025184 ) so you can tell us how many KW/hours it takes to recharge the battery, typically. Then we can better estimate our own true charging costs (since the cost of electricity varies wildly across the US, from nearly 20 cents per KW/h down to less than 4 cents per KW/h), as we'll probably not be getting free 'juice' when using it for daily commutes.
Darr: Yes, that idea passed through my mind ... on Sunday night as I was packing for the trip. Car and Driver did that exercise already and found that it took 13.4 kwh to recharge the battery. The battery takes a 9 kwh charge, but the process is not 100 percent efficient, and that explains the discrepancy.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/10q4/2011_chevrolet_volt_full_test-road_test
Looking at my power bill, I found that the marginal cost per kilowatt hour was roughly 10 cents, so it would have taken me $1.34 worth of electricity to recharge. I figure that's equivalent to about four-tenths of a gallon of gas. If you consider the 32.9 miles we got before the Volt switched from all-electric to gas assist, that means our mileage for that leg of the trip was a little over 80 mpg equivalent.
And where is all this new electricity going come from when there are "thousands" of e-cars on the road? We'll just transfer the cost from oil to coal.
Yes, but we will have that option. Like I say below - there are many different ways to generate electricity. There's only one way to generate gasoline. To use this kind of car as a stepping stone to new, better fuel technologies is what is needed. This is NOT the last car that will ever be designed. It's the middle one.
I think 11pct said it best:
"LP -> Reel to reel -> 8 track -> cassette -> CD -> DVD -> Blue Ray -> limits of your imagination"
At least with the Volt you wern't stranded! That wouldn't have been the case with a Tesla or Leaf.
Agreed. GM's Voltec transmission is the "real deal". It uses a combination of the battery & ICE. It's versitile because it's not limited to electic-only operation.
And we've recently learned that the ICE will ONLY "help" drive the wheels when going faster than 70mph and the vehicle needs the extra motivation --- but the ICE continues to re-charge the batteries while doing so.
The Volt is GM's answer to the Toyota Prius PIEV. If this the Volt belong to Toyota, would anyone even care to be this critical?
Sounds like it's worth the 70k price tag!!
We might want to double-check that price. I've heard $40k (which I thought was ridiculous) but $70k is just commercial suicide!
Why is getting facts straight so difficult?
You're already ON the internet - why not use it?
Being informed is this easy... http://tinyurl.com/2vr2prn
Ha, yes, it's $41,000 (which includes extras like OnStar), and a $7500 tax credit would bring it down to $33,500. A lot of people will likely go for the $350-a-month lease.
It's nothing more than a glorified golf cart! Who's paying the electric bill?
Well, at home it would just add on to their monthly bill - and cut their gas bill by a far greater amount. As for the motel, if it's just 10 to 13 Kwh, that's less than $2 worth, they make a far greater profit on the room rates so they're not worried. After all, motels don't really worry about how much electricity their guests use.
Now a bigger EV battery would take more to charge, but would also require special facilities, a hotel might charge extra for that, but even then it would still be cheaper for the customer than buying gas. Some luxury hotels are now installing chargers for Tesla Roadsters, as they want to attract that high end clientèle.
if these cars come out in mass numbers expect the price of hotel rooms to go up or for them to have 2 prices. one with a charge for your car and one where you aren't allowed to charge your car. hotels will pass the huge electric bill that will come with these cars on to the consumer.
No reason for that. Just put "Parking Meters" out in the lot. Swipe your credit card and charge your car. No need for convoluted reasons or over-complicated schemes to get your money. Just charge us.
The hotels will still charge for those meters... somebody has to maintain them. That's a brilliant idea though!
Better yet, swipe your hotel keycard, have the charge put on your tab.
BTW: "the huge electric bills" amount to approximately $1.50 - $2.50 a night per vehicle.
They just have to burn more coal at the power plant to produce the extra electricity needed to charge it (not to mention the current infrastructure- imagine if the whole country drove electrics), so whats the point. Uses less foreign oil I guess.
Why does the right always pull out that argument? "Well it doesn't fix everything instantly so why change anything?" I guess we should have stuck to model T's rather than invent your huge ass Hummer for you with that argument.
The only way they know how to think is ALL or NOTHING...
The Volt doesn't fit into ALL of their party line, so NOTHING about will ever be good enough...
The "point" is to take a step. To DO something. To try an approach that may very well work, if only to prop us up on the next step to something that works better.
Electricity has many sources, gas has one - oil. We can find, and have found different ways to generate electricity.
Really KM? While the east coast is filled with coal power plants, the west coast uses them sparingly. We use a lot of natural gas and other forms. In WA, where they started, they use Hydro almost exclusively, which has its own ecological issues mind you so it’s not totally clean. Honestly we need to stop looking for a one size fits all fix. It might not be a perfect fit for everyone in every place but it’s a start. On top of that show me a study that proves that driving a normal car during the day puts out less pollution then running a coal power plant at night while this car charges.
Dont drive a hummer, but nice try. Until battery technologies and the infrastructure improve (which is a better place to start if you want to DO something), this is nothing more than an expensive toy. Other improvements have to be made in parallel to ensure its viability.
Fair enough, but then the argument becomes "Why are we building all these charging stations with nothing to use them?"
You're right, they both should happen in parallel but, since there's no profit to be made until acceptance reaches "critical mass" they won't be. Electricity is easy enough to get to for the section of the population that will use these first cars. Then they can drive demand and the rest will follow. It's how every new technology for the last 200 years has worked.
Thanks Alan, you just reinforced what I already knew. The White House is kidding themselves if they think this is going to work in the U.S. anytime soon. Great idea, but execution is a long long ways away. Seeing as our family keeps its vehicles for 10 years and my husband is up for one in 2012, the next opportunity to convince me to go this way will be in 2017 for myself. Unless something drastic changes in the technology and infrastructure in the next seven years it won't be happening for our family then either.
This denies a very important "stepping stone" to get where you want us to be. You are right, no one is going to be able to change the entire infrastructure of the U.S. economy and transportation industry in the next few months. Thankfully, no one is trying to do that. They are trying to step us away from oil, which has only one source, to electricity, which has several sources.
I hope people like you will reconsider the investment in the infrastructure and commitment to changing our future, not changing our present.
The "White House" has nothing to do with this, the Volt project was started by GM in 2006, long before our current President came to office, and long before the government "bailout".
Planning a new car in 2012? Then you'll be glad to know that every major auto maker is working on some sort of plug-in car, battery only or hybrid, and most will be on the market by 2012, so you'll have plenty of options.
Do consumers really want electric cars? What happens when you are in the middle of the desert and you run out of juice? How much more power are we going to need on the electrical grid to power millions of electric cars. What happens when the car is in an accident? What is the maintenance cost? What is the used electric car market going to look like? So many questions.
What happens when gas passes $5, and we followed the republican's ideas?
Seems you have lots of questions, but are too willing to talk yourself out of working towards any solutions.
This is one of the the first electric cars, and by no means the last electric car - the design, technology, implementation and acceptance can only improve..
Don't think so? Tell us about your dads first VCR? Microwave oven? Personal Computer? Cell phone?
LP -> Reel to reel -> 8 track -> cassette -> CD -> DVD -> Blue Ray -> limits of your imagination
Lets see if I can answer some of those questions:
If you run out of "charge" in an electric, you'd do the same as if you run out of gas in a gasser - you call a tow truck. Of course, it's much better to just avoid running out in the first place. BTW, a plug-in hybrid like the Volt can also run on gasoline, so you'd have to be very careless to run out of both gas and charge.
The current grid could support a million plug-ins, as most charging is done at night. It will take years just to reach a millon, so we do have time to upgrade the grid before it is needed.
What happens in an accident is much like what happens in any car - the car is damaged and the airbags deploy. There is a safety disconnect in the battery pack that activates in a severe collision, shutting off the power. All high voltage lines are color coded bright orange to warn emergency personnel. The battery is unlikely to catch fire and will not explode, unlike gasoline which readily does both.
Maintenance is likely to be less than gassers, as plug-in hybrids use their engine less, and electrics don't have engine oil or spark-plugs or filters to worry about. Brake pad wear is much less, thanks to regenerative braking.
Used car market is hard to predict, but hybrids hold their value better than average, and used RAV4-EVs have sold at or above the new price.
You need to factor in the cost of the electricity and the battery upkeep. How much did we pollute the air to generate the electricity? What happened to nuclear power plants? What happens when a bunch of commuters all try to charge these things up at night? Do we have charging facilities at work? Can copper wire thieves run off with the cord while it is left unattended? Are wreckers going to have giant on-board recharge stations to get you going when you die in the middle of no where? Is this car air conditioned and comes with a heater? Hard to get going in the winter?
...and we're all going to die!
Seriously, considering all the great things we've accomplished as Americans, why would you spend your time thinking we can't overcome any of that?
Aren't you nabobs types always touting our American exceptional-ism? How does your attitude fit in with that? Y'all best wise up and walk your talk!
Remember, our present won't work in our future...times they are-a changin'. yes?
You need to factor in the cost of the electricity and the battery upkeep.
Average cost per kwh for electricity is about 12 cents. The battery is warrantied for 8 years, 100,000 miles.
How much did we pollute the air to generate the electricity?
We're doing that anyway. And moving towards solar and hydro is the better solution as it is and should be happening regardless of how many electric vehicles are on the road.
What happened to nuclear power plants?
Not sure.
What happens when a bunch of commuters all try to charge these things up at night?
At off-peak hours, probably nothing.
Do we have charging facilities at work?
Ask your work. Each employer will have different policies.
Can copper wire thieves run off with the cord while it is left unattended?
The Volt will sound a car alarm if the car is locked and someone removes the charging plug.
Are wreckers going to have giant on-board recharge stations to get you going when you die in the middle of no where?
Wouldn't matter with the Volt as you would gas up like any normal car. You don't see thousands of stranded ICE vehicles all the time, do you?
Is this car air conditioned and comes with a heater? Hard to get going in the winter?
Air conditioning and heated seats if you get the premium trim package. Regular heating for other trims. The Volt has a thermal management system for the engine which keeps it within its preferred operating temperatures. A vehicle like Nissan's Leaf has a passive air cooled system that will be subject to temperature changes much more, which will result in lower mileage.
Good job of answering, but I should point out that A/C is standard on the Volt and the Leaf, just as it is now standard on most cars.
Oh, and if you called a tow truck, they'd be more likely to just tow it to your destination, instead of trying to recharge it.
I've been driving a 2000 Toyota RAV4 EV for 10 years. It has 75,000 miles on it. I've been a "car guy" all my life and love hot cars as much as any guy. But this electric RAV is the best car I've ever had. No gas. No oil. No tuneups. No valves, gaskets, air filters, oil filters, water pumps, clutch, transmission, etc. etc. Just wheels, brakes, shocks, a battery, electronics, and a motor with two bearings. And this car was built with 1990's technology. The new ones are even better. After 10 years it still gets 85 miles per charge (started with 110). I drive it to work every day and across town (LA) 35 miles to the airport when I travel. I plug it in every night in my garage, and set it to start charging at 9PM when my rates go down (I got SCE's special EV plan which gives lower rates when the demand is lower). It costs less to run than my gas RAV4 did when gas was $2. a gallon. And it is faster and quieter. Air conditioning and heater work great. Even has heated seats! I have a gas car for longer trips (rare) and actually it would be cheaper to rent a car for long trips (less insurance & maintenance costs, etc.)
I can't wait till 2012 when the new all electric Toyota RAV4 with Tesla batteries comes out. Awesome.
It takes about a month to get used to the difference in range. Now I never think about it any more than anyone else does when their gas gets low.
Also... even when burning 100% coal to make electricity these cars are MUCH CLEANER than gas cars. (see Argonne national labs extensive analyses... http://greet.es.anl.gov/publication-bkdduogo or www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/HV/300.pdf - 2004-09-24
These cars are fabulous.
Plug-in vehicles are really only practical for people who have a dedicated garage/driveway where they can plug in the car overnight and rest assured that it will remain plugged in until finished charging. This basically rules out anyone living in a city (no power outlets on the street, and even if there were, people could just come along and unplug your car) or in an apartment complex (essentially the same problem). Seems like the only people who could reliably have a place to charge their plug-in car would be suburban and rural residents. And since even the fastest "rapid-charging" technology still takes around 30 minutes to charge a car up to just 80% it's not like corner charging stations are going to be practical either. Who wants to sit around waiting half an hour when filling a gas tank takes five minutes or less?
Sorry Adam, I seriously doubt we'll see many of these plug in electric vehicles in the rural areas. At least for a while until reliability and range concerns are overcome.
Besides at the $35,000 range per car, most rural families could never afford it. Regardless of some people think, $35,000 isn't chump chnage to spend on a vehicle.
There's another option. It's called a "flow battery".
Make a Zinc-Air battery that uses a liquid electrolyte. Pump the tank full of Zinc slurry, and when you kick on the ignition a pump comes on.
Zinc slurry flows through the battery, combines with oxygen from the air, and produces electricity. And off you go.
Zinc Oxide collects in the Waste Tank as you drive. When you want to recharge, you plug in overnight, OR you go to a recharge station where they pump out the used electrolyte, and replace it.
They filter and recharge that waste into Zinc slurry again, while you drive away.
The advantage is, once you shut off the ignition, the fuel pump stops, and the battery stops discharging.
Unlike Lithium batteries that will discharge slowly when not in use, a Zinc Air battery holds it's charge chemically.
America doesn't HAVE giant reserves of Lithium. China has, we don't.
BUT, we have scads of Zinc. And it gets recycled over and over again, so running out is not so much a problem.
Well, it's just like any other vehicle, it isn't for everyone. Not everyone drives a pickup, or a luxury car, or a convertible, or a sports car, people get what fits their needs and wants. So if you can't plug-in regularly, you'd probably look for something else, or use public transit.
Plug-in usage will probably start mainly in the suburbs, where every house has a garage or carport thus a place to recharge, and that covers a substantial portion of the population. A substantial portion of suburbia are multi-car households, thus could use an electric for local driving yet still have a gasser or hybrid for long trips.
But I must point out that some apartment buildings do have off-street parking, a few even offer garages, they might consider offering charging outlets if the demand was sufficient and the economic case could be made for it. I imagine that some parking lot owners might also decide to offer charging if they could make a little extra money at it.
Finally, Project Better Place and Tesla Motors are researching "swappable" battery packs, a drained pack can be swapped for a fully charged one at a "swap station" in less than two minutes. That's faster than refilling a gas tank!
And thanks, jkirk, for mentioning zinc/air fuel cells, they have excellent energy density. There are also Vanadium based "flow batteries" that work similarly, but are not as well suited for automotive use.
Of all the comments above no one mentions that most batteries, no matter what they are made of, are extremely toxic to the environment. What do we do with all the huge 800 lb batteries after 8 years or 100,000 miles. Dump them into the landfill?
The other biggest concern, that a few others have mentioned, is can the current electric grid handle the added load from cars being charged at night. There are already rolling brown outs, in places like southern California due to overload from AC units. This won't make the situation any better
I think that power generated on a large scale, power plants, are almost always more efficient than power generation on a small scale, internal cumbustion engines. Therefore plug in cars have the POTENTIAL to be a little bit better for the environment. I like the Volts current setup, only battery power for most daily trips to and from work, with the added capability to drive on gas power to go further.
"What do we do with all the huge 800 lb batteries after 8 years or 100,000 miles"
We grind them up, the same as we do with Lead Acid batteries. And we smelt them down into Lithium again.
The recycling of Lead Acid batteries is pretty cool. They recover all the lead, recycle the plastic, neutralize the acid and then turn it into fertilizer.
Actually, LiIon batteries are considered "non-toxic", they don't contain heavy metals like lead or cadmium, so they can be safely "landfilled". But it makes more sense to simply recycle them, and the recycling process is well developed.
If the batteries are still functional, there's talk about using them as electric-storage devices for homes, when we attain renewable-energy nirvana and all have solar panels on our roofs.
These electric cars are useless for people who live in apartments - unless the complex is willing to invest in the charging stations but unless these cars really take off in popularity and renters demand it there will be a significant part of the population who will not be able to ever buy a car that needs to be plugged in.
I just don't think that any car that requires a plug-in is going to be popular and make significant sales - they are already starting with a sub-segment of the population who has a garage where they can install the power coupling and be assured that no one can unplug the car.
To begin with, a plug-in hybrid like the Volt doesn't have to be plugged in, it can run on gasoline whenever charging isn't available. Of course, running on electricity is a lot cheaper and cleaner than running on gasoline, so the typical Volt driver will want to plug it in when they can.
The subsection of the population with a garage is quite substantial - most of suburbia falls into that category, certainly enough to make significant sales. After all, the suburbs made for significant SUV sales - until oil prices spiked. Now a lot of those suburbanites are looking to cut their gasoline bills, and plug-ins look very attractive for that reason.
Why would a hotel be obligated to recharge your car? I am sure they have gasoline for the lawnmower they use to maintain the grounds, but that does not mean I should expect them to dump that into my gas tank. Honestly, is the author of this article a moron? It is this kind of thing that will encourage other "moron's" to expect a free recharge wherever they go. And if one of my family members buys one of these, and then expects to "charge up" while they visit, I will be happy to let them know what the cost of that charge will be. It might just be a buck or two, but that does not make my house a filling station. Get a grip.
"What good is a Volt without a outlet?"
The idea of the Volt is to use your home ac outlet overnight, then drive 40 miles or less to work every day. In the infrequent times you are on the road greater than 40 miles, you rely on the gas engine not depending on outlets along the way. In the future, there may be many more outlets arranged to accommodate plug-in cars but not for a while.
Don't ding the Volt because for now, Alan, because you have to crawl through the bushes trying to find an outlet.
You're right, I didn't strictly need to skulk through the bushes. But some future electric-car owners might have to think about that issue. And if I were a Volt owner on the road, I'd definitely be looking for an outlet if it were convenient, even at lunchtime.
Wouldn't a better "road test" be to have two (at least two) people that live in the same house use different cars for a month? One uses the Volt the other a Honda Civic and then they can report back real-world gas usage and everyday troubles (like going to Costco).
The long-distance trips are great to prove a point but they don't tell me almost anything I want to know.
A few more comments: for answers to most of your concerns, check out the FAQ page at Plug In America:
http://www.pluginamerica.org/learn-about-plug-ins/frequently-asked-questions.html#Q13
A big factor to keep in mind: None of your money goes to Big Oil Companies, and especially to Foreign Oil companies. Currently 40% of your gas money goes overseas to Saudi Arabia (home of the 9/11 terrorists). When I drive, I use 100% american energy.
Another wild fact: GM spent over $1Billion developing electric cars in the early 90's. They developed an amazing electric car called the EV1. California, desperate for clean air, saw the technology and passed a law that all companies selling cars in California offer 5% of their fleet to be zero emission vehicles. And they all did it. (hence my Toyota RAV 4) GM and the oil companies saw that mandate as a threat, so when Bush became president, Bush's chief of staff Andrew Card (formerly president of the American Automobile Manufacturers association) organized a lawsuit teaming GM, Chevron, and a few other car & oil companies to kill the california law. They won, and all the car companies (except Toyota, thank goodness) immediately recalled all the electrics and CRUSHED them. There are only 3 EV1's left today, all with disabled components. GM abandoned its electric car division and bought Hummer instead. GM then sold the battery patents and technology to... CHEVRON!! Chevron since then sued Toyota for their use of the batteries and the result is that Chevron will only allow cars to use the batteries in sizes big enough for hybrids (which still burn gasoline). They disallowed the use of those batteries for all-electric vehicles. I know, it sounds like a wild conspiracy theory. But it is ALL TRUE. Just like GM did when they bought up all the electric trolleys in LA and destroyed them in the 30's and 40's.
Those were Ni-mH batteries. Now that Lithium Ion batteries have matured, Chevron no longer controls them and we have a new wave of EV's coming round.
Since the movie "who killed the electric car" came out, GM has suffered a lot of bad press about their blunder. They could have been the world leader of this technology that THEY DEVELOPED. Instead, it was left to others. China is investing huge amounts to develop battery and electric car technology and may become the world leader.
Nevertheless, its great GM has seen the light and developed the VOLT. It looks like a great car.
PS: electrics aren't for everyone. but 80% of people drive less than 40 miles a day. They could go a long way to making America energy independent and reduce global warming along the way. Plus, they are really great reliable cars!
You left out the end of the story.
One of those EV1's was donated to a college. Stripped of the batteries, the charge controller, etc, so it couldn't be driven.
Well, the students and professors rebuilt it, with modern batteries, and a custom charge controller.
They took it out for a test drive, GM found out, and sued them.
GM is SO DETERMINED to kill the EV1 they wouldn't even allow the College to drive the car that had been rebuilt !!!
This goes beyond stupid. Destroying the EV1 on the thin argument that GM didn't want to stock replacement parts was odd.
Ignoring the fervent pleas of the EV1 owners, that offered to BUY the cars, and sign quitclaims against the need for repair parts, was odd.
But suing the college that did rebuild one? That goes beyond stupid.
I don't like conspiracy theories, but I have to admit, this sounds like a conspiracy to suppress electric cars.
"Once is chance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is Enemy Action."
They should have never received it in a restorable condition. But GM also had all of these "museum" EV1 delivered with the understanding that they were never supposed to be driven again. So the university broke the agreement and GM was well within their right to sue them to get control of the vehicle.
Of course is doesn't mean anything to the left coast public that GM spent $1,000,000,000 to produce 800 cars leased over a 4 year period. That's 1.25 million per car.
Let's hope that one day affordable low-emission vehicles become a reality.
And how do we know it cost that much for GM to develop the EV1? We have their word.
But even if development did cost that much, it only makes their refusal to sell even more strange, as it would have reduced their losses by several million dollars. Had they met the actual demand for EVs instead of restricting sales and continued selling it, they might have even paid off the development cost, and perhaps by now would have started turning a profit. Instead, it was a total loss.
But of course, GM couldn't escape the consequences of their bad decision, and are now trying to make amends.
This electric car is not a practical solution for everyone out there in America right now, but neither was a car when they first came out. In 1910’s when my great uncle went to Ford to learn how to fix these new fangled cars his father laughed at him because they weren’t practical. There were no fueling stations outside of the big city and they couldn’t go long distances. Most of the cars couldn’t leave the big cities they were in because if they did they would get stranded. They were a fad that would die. All these concerns about ability to go long distances, finding some place to charge, and impact on the grid on valid ones, but instead of using this as a reason to poo poo the idea we should use it as opportunity. That is the thing that frustrates me the most because it not practical or useful for you, you think we should scrap the idea. At one point the gas powered car wasn’t practical imagine what would have happened if had scraped the idea then.
I would love to get into the business of installing charging stations. That could be good.
This reminds me of getting online in the early 1990s. I called myself a "phone whore" because I was always desperate for an RC-11 phone jack so I could plug in, log on, and get my fix. I would plug in anywhere I could get a dial tone. I found myself hunting for phones I could unplug or random, unused wall jacks in public places. Similarly, I was challenged to find electrical outlets for my laptop in cafes or lobbies.
Well, eventually hotels provided jacks, and now we're almost 100% wireless these days. And cafes and airports (and even airplanes) started providing access to power. It took awhile, but we got there. It was really only about a year or two before I was able to get my first (very slow) wireless modem. I expect this revolution to take a similar path. Within a couple years savvy employers will have charging stations in their parking lots, in five public lots and hotels will have them, and in 10 they will be everywhere.
My workplace is currently constructing 15 special parking places for plug-in cars. They have solar panels and batteries, along with regular AC supply. Eight hours of charging means that this car should be very cheap to drive from anywhere within a 50 mile radius.
So relax, it's starting.
I never understood this Government Motors idea...
Not only is it a challenge to find an outlet while on the road, why would the establishment - this hotel - allow you to electrically "fill-up" on their monthly electricity bill?
Hold on!!! now that I think about it, this is really an analogy for the administrations socialist "spread the wealth" model!
Duh. Given that this is all under private industry, your libertarian screed is irrational.
Hotels will put in charging stations for the same reasons they have non-smoking rooms, air conditioning, and WiFi.
Because customers want these things, and the first hotel to supply them will get more business.
Or did you think the WiFi being offered at Best Western was "free" ?
Heck no, it's not free. The hotel pays for it, and offers it as a customer premium to attract business.
are you high?
This Volt is the car driving on the bridge to nowhere!
I suppose that Just like health-care, this poc will actually SAVE us money.
And DUH, GM is private industry?
They union bailout is nowhere close to paying us back!
As of now, GM has repaid less than $7 billion of the $50 billion it received from taxpayers, and this doesn’t include the additional $17 billion used to rescue GM’s financing subsidiary, GMAC.
The Obama administration left…wasteful work rules and excessive benefits largely intact, and gave the United Auto Workers Union (UAW) a big chunk of General Motors’ stock, even though the UAW helped [destroy] the company…the company has value today only because the federal government pumped billions of taxpayer dollars into the company and engineered the wiping out of General Motors’ bondholders.
The VOLT would never fly at Ford - because the government doesn't need to answer to an actual objective board or share holders demanding profit.
Rick, insulting people is no way to win an argument - especially when your opponent just made a reasoned rational counter-argument.
Hotels and motels don't meter the lights or water to their customers, nor do they charge extra for the soap and towels - they figure the room rates more than covers it, and the room rate would more than cover the 1 or 2 dollars worth of electricity from recharging at a standard outlet. Now there are some hotels that are starting to offer higher power chargers to their customers, as some of those customers are the wealthy ones they want to attract. 100 grand Tesla Roadster owners are certainly going to be welcomed!
Sorry, but Obama doesn't get credit for the Volt, as the Volt program started in 2006 in response to Tesla Motors unveiling their hot electric Roadster. In fact, all the major auto makers are developing plug-in cars, to come on the market in the next 3 years, and that includes foreign brands like BMW, Nissan, Toyota, Mercedes, Mitsubishi, VW that are not in any way beholden to the White House. Heck, it even includes automakers that don't even sell in the US!
BTW, Ford will soon be offering both plug-in hybrid models similar to the Volt, and a battery electric car as well, so apparently they do expect to make a profit at it.
Sorry, Rick, but your arguments just don't hold water.
$41,000?
Given that you can purchase a Ford Fusion Hybrid for $28,100 MSRP, that the Fusion Hybrid gets 41 mpg city, and that at $3/gallon gas it would take around 12 years to make your money back even if you never had to fill the Volt with gas. Anyone should be able to see that this is not worth the money.
To ease the pain our friendly federal government is offering a $7,500 tax credit (tax credit is another term for a targeted tax cut) if you buy the car.
This is insulting. First the taxpayers of the United States funded the bailout of General Motors.
Second, the feds offer a tax credit to promote this car further taking money from the taxpayers .
How about this, if the Volt is a car that people really want let them pay for it. Sales will determine the success or failure of that car not government (aka taxpayer) subsidies.
"our friendly federal government is offering a $7,500 tax credit (tax credit is another term for a targeted tax cut)"
You object to tax cuts?
" First the taxpayers of the United States funded the bailout of General Motors."
Yes, and thereby prevented all those jobs from being lost, as well as all the employees at the parts suppliers and dealerships.
GM reorganized and is rebounding. When the IPO stabilizes the Gov'ment can start selling GM back to itself.
"Second, the feds offer a tax credit to promote this car further taking money from the taxpayers ."
Odd. I would think of a tax credit as NOT taking money from taxpayers.
BTW, gas is $2.95 today. Last Friday it was $2.79. What was it six months ago, 50 cents less?
What will it be next Summer?
Next year? $4 a gallon?
Shortens that payback period considerably.
My sister just came up for a visit, in her hybrid.
I mentioned how some people complain about the payback period, and she just smiled and shook her head.
So I asked what MPG she's getting, and she said "44" MPG... and kept smiling.
No disrespect, but did you ever take economics in school?
There is no free lunch - those so-called "tax cuts" for only GM customers are paid for by taxpayers that could not afford a 41k POS Chevy.
BTW, More econ 101...Bankruptcy does not usually mean lost jobs.
"GM reorganized and is rebounding."
Again, I want what you're smokin'!
YES - GM should have filed for Bankruptcy- let the free market get rid of the dead wood and insane union terms and became a viable company once again = none of this off the backs of Americans making an honest living.
Instead, comrade Obama needed their vote and we are now paying for it.
If it wasn't true, it would be funny.
But this is all academic...
I just ask you to remember this thread on 10/12/10.
That is the date that you were told that the Volt will fail because of market conditions, despite our tax dollars being thrown at it's silly strategy and you disagreed.
Facts can be stubborn things and History is on my side.
Yes, Rick, facts can be stubborn things. Fact is, Obama isn't the one responsible for those "electric propulsion" tax rebates, that particular bill was signed by Bush Jr., and was passed with substantial support from Republicans in Congress. Mind you, up until now the only vehicle that qualified for that rebate was the Tesla Roadster, which was developed and produced strictly with private investments.
Another fact: GM started development of the Volt in 2006, which was more than 2 years before Obama became President, so Obama wasn't responsible for the Volt, either.
Yet another fact: GM and Chrysler did go through bankruptcy reorganization, but without government assistance they would have gone out of business and been liquidated, which would have lost all of those jobs, plus job losses in all the companies that supplied GM and Chrysler - and other auto makers. Even Ford could have been damaged had some of those key suppliers gone out of business, leaving Ford without important supplies. That's why Ford supported the bailout, even though Ford didn't need it and it prevented the demise of two of their biggest competitors.
I'm going to be busy voting in November, but I rather suspect that Volt sales will be a lot more substantial than Rick thinks. After all there are both Liberals and Conservatives that agree we should be reducing oil imports, and the quickest and most effective way to do that is reduce oil consumption.
You are missing the point.
My hard earned $ should not go to silly projects like this.
Regardless of how/who/when they were enacted.
The Volt will go down in flames, because the government is involved.
Gov involvment involvement in any enterprise is the kiss of death.
In his book “The Living Company”, author Arie de Geus highlighted using a recent study by Ellen de Rooij of the Stratix Group that the average life expectancy of all firms, regardless of size, is only 12.5 years.
Going out of business is all part of the free markets' natural selection and it would seem that all US auto makers are on borrowed time, not to mention our money.
Life is tough and often not "fair", but that is how democracy advances as a society - not by prolonging the inevitable with bailouts.
(and yes this includes wall-street)
Any doubters about the need to change to alternative fuels for transportation should see Josh Tickell's film, Fuel. See http://thefuelfilm.com
The Volt is one step in the right direction (and could have been better with a diesel engine running on biodiesel instead of gasoline), and had we taken that step with the first oil crisis in the early seventies, we would have been that much further along now. With enough demand from consumers, the electricity to recharge the Volt will come eventually from renewable energy sources, but until then a single point source of pollution (power plant) is more easily regulated than millions of gasoline powered cars. Anyway, who wants to depend on foreign oil? At least for now, no war is required for coal.
Whether or not the oil industry conspired with politicians and GM to literally crush the first successful electric car, GM's EV1, first produced in 1996, we lost 15 years of potential progress. (See Who Killed the Electric Car? http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/trailer ) That kind of regressive thinking is not just self-destructive, but grossly immoral, given the current scientific consensus that we face catastrophic climate change unless we break our fossil fuel addiction. We have only one planet, and we are rapidly making it uninhabitable. This is not a left/right political issue, and it is no longer a quality of life issue. It is a survival issue. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?