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Chevrolet seems to be persnickety about insisting that the Volt is not a hybrid car, but an electric vehicle that just happens to generate some of that electricity with an onboard gasoline-powered engine. That's set off a months-long debate over the semantics of alternative-fuel vehicles — and in the past few days, some have even charged that General Motors has been "lying" about the car's status as a "true electric vehicle."
The charge stems from the recent revelation that, at high speeds, the Volt's 1.4-liter internal combustion engine doesn't just generate electricity, but contributes directly to driving the wheels through a set of planetary gears. That revelation ticked off automotive writers who had been told repeatedly that the gas-powered engine was connected to the car's Voltec drive system only indirectly. The New York Times' Wheels blog referred to the "controversy" in today's posting about the Volt's coming-out party, and The Car Connection's Nelson Ireson criticized the critics as interested only in "self-serving, tabloid-worthy headlines."
To an outsider like myself, this doesn't seem like much of a controversy to agonize over. Although I didn't realize it at the time, Volt spokesman Rob Peterson was referring to this back-and-forth last week when he told me that "in some instances, we haven't been able to go as deep as we would have liked" into the Volt's inner workings. He said some of the details about the electric-plus-gas system had to be glossed over while GM worked on the legalities of the patent process.
That patent angle also came through in the New York Times posting, as well as in discussions we've had with GM engineers as we drove a Volt from Seattle to Medford, Ore. (Sometimes the engineer was in the back seat, and sometimes he was in the driver's seat.)
Is it really worth hooking up the gas engine to the electric drive train? The engineers say yes. They say the arrangement produces a slight increase in efficiency, but they emphasize that it's not as if the gas engine takes over from the electric drive. The electric drive is indispensable, at high as well as low speeds, they say.
There may be still more secrets that GM is still keeping under wraps. (For example, exactly how much does the car weigh?) The way I see it, the fact that the gas engine might make a direct rather than an indirect contribution to the Volt's power under some circumstances is no big deal. And the fact that some people might want to think of the Volt as a hybrid rather than an all-electric car is no big deal, either. Am I wrong? Please let me know through your comments below.
Follow msnbc.com's Alan Boyle and Jim Seida as they take an 800-mile "Electric Road Trip" in a Chevy Volt ... and file their dispatches from the road.
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The trick is that the Volt was sold as "the return of the electric car from the company that killed the electric car", only with the addition of an onboard "range extender", something long-known in the EV world. Range extenders are not uncommon as an option for homebrew EVs, with companies selling range extender trailers for EVs.
The revelation that the Volt is really a conventional plug-in Hybrid, with a power train remarkably similar to that of the Prius, just strikes EV fans as bait and switch. They promised a revolutionary new EV, that happens to have a range extender onboard. People were expecting GM to re-start the EV market.
Now we find out that GM is just releasing a re-hashed plug-in Prius; hiding behind "patent issues". Yet from the (limited) details of the power train that have now been released, it sounds *EXACTLY* like the Prius' power train, only with a bigger battery and plug-in option. (Which Toyota will begin offering next year as well.)
The vehicle may be a perfectly good vehicle; it's just not what GM has been marketing it as for three years. It would be like Volkswagen advertising the coming of a brand-new technology diesel vehicle, only to find out just before release that it's just a slightly upgraded TDI.
The Volt is very clearly just an American made version of the Prius - only not as good. It is NOT a pure electric vehicle if gasoline engine power ever goes directly to power the drive train. Almost all people understood that the gas engine would solely act as something of a generator to recharge the batteries for continual electric driving. Obviously, that is NOT the case.
I own a third generation Prius in which I am currently averaging over 55 mpg after 5000+ total miles. My Prius will drive as an all electric vehicle for approximately 2 miles before converting and recharging. That is not much - true - but the car is an mpg wonder in that if one drives the vehicle prudently - using the EV mode when starting up after all stops, when going the last 100 yards or so to a stop light, when driving on quiet suburban streets with posted 25 mph limits, etc. - it will easily yield mpg rates of 50 or more. And, at $22,000.00 it is half the cost of the Volt.
I appreciate GM's efforts but they appear to be coming up short. The Volt sounds like a huge disappointment and only affirms my decision to purchase a Prius and wait the several more years until electric vehicles are better refined.
Doug - You said it yourself: your prius only drives all electric for about 2 miles. The Volt can drive all electric for abour 40 miles, which is more than enough for a majority of commuters to get to and from work each day. That means they're not using a drop of gas all week. Seems like a pretty huge difference and advantage to me.
The standard Prius doesn't have a plug to recharge with, but Toyota is now testing a Plug-in Prius that has a charger and larger battery, it uses electricity from that extra battery capacity to reduce gasoline use, and can go up to 17 miles on that extra electricity. The battery on the Plug-in Prius is smaller than the Volt battery, so it won't reduce gasoline consumption quite as much, but it will also be about $10,000 less. The Plug-in Prius will go on sale in 2011 or 2012, and will give the Volt substantial competition.
a tempest in a teapot. who cares as long as it works
A superb case of literally the cart before the horse:
It is quite likely that your Aunt's front porch outlet will be a shared outlet, newer home outdoor outlets will be GFI and probably shared with garage door openers and low voltage sprinkler systems (not to mention, refridgerator/freezer, the Halloween, Christmas and other holiday decorations). Dedicated outlets can be expensive to add and you didn't state if that's a dedicated 20 or 30 amp circuit. A potentially very expensive hidden electrical cost and that's just new homeowners not older homes with exhausted electrical capacity, landlords/property managers for multiple unit dwellings. Can't get your landlord to fix the windows or leaky faucet now? Try getting them to add electrical outlets w/metering to the place!! Not counting the infrastructure costs for hotels, airports, businesses , etc..and, don't forget ultimately those costs roll down hill to the consumer, with home costs to absorb also. The car seems like the easy part!
The major dent in all of tis is the computing cost of ownership: the omission of insurance and service fees, new technology (batteries, drive trains, dashboard , etc..) will be much more expensive until, and if, widespread market penetration is achieved. The cost per gallon is hollow and means nothing the real kicker will be when Joe consumer gets his electrical bill at the end of the month, OUCH! On top of a car payment and all the other costs of ownership, even in a pre-recession economy it is not realistic.
I'm curious as too the efficiency of recharging the car 120v versus 220v. For the same reasons that hot-tubs, clothes dryer,ovens, etc.. run on 220v. You bring up an interesting predicament about leaving possibly expensive charging cords unattended overnight and/or someone commandeering "YOUR'" dedicated electricity for an hour or two without your knowledge. Recharging inside a garage is optimal but far from reality and security issues need to be addressed up front if for no other reason but to ease an already leery consumer.
It has always been my contention that our electrical grids are decades away from large scale, affordable electricity to support these vehicles. These vehicles will be nothing more than neighbor hood novelties until these "details" can addressed. Battery and other component life-cycles will long expire before widespread feasibility. With the emerging demand for integrating renewable energy sources into existing power grids the increased load capacity is not there. Neighborhoods and towns will surely pay higher energy cost because of increased consumption by the few converts with large scale capabilities far off. Now think about how the major metro power companies will manage already stressed power grids when there are times now when we ask folks to turn off AC.
The question still arises with regard to battery retention of a charge between different battery/manufacturing processes. i.e. if you go on vaca for 2 weeks do you need to recharge the battery before, after or leave it plugged in ( see above related issues)?
the "efficiency" of charging is the same whether 110 or 220, but the speed of charging is quite different. A standard 110v 15 amp outlet can take up to 12 hours to charge, depending on how much charge is needed. A 220 volt 30 amp outlet can cut the charge time to 3 hours or less, as it provides 4 times as much power. Of course, if you can't take that much time to charge, you can go with a partial charge and the gas engine will start up when needed. In fact you can drive on gasoline if no charging is available.
Of course, you'd want to charge up when possible, as the fuel cost of "driving electric" is a lot less than for gasoline. The cost for electricity is about 2 cents per mile, while the cost for gasoline runs from 7 cent per mile (efficient hybrid) up to a staggering 30 cents per mile (Hummer). So while your electric bill will go up a bit, your gasoline bill will drop much more.
Since most charging will be done at night when power demand is at the lowest, the existing power grid can support over a million plug-in cars. It will take nearly a decade to sell that many, so we do have time to upgrade the power grid.
As for "standing charge loss", batteries do slowly loose charge over time, though with their huge capacity it would take several months before the charge was too low to start the car - two weeks is really not a concern. But remember that the starter battery in other cars also lose charge, especially if a car alarm is installed, and are much smaller, so a month sitting idle can leave them unable to start, also.
TO gary b-2492787:
I agree with your thoughts about the ancient electrical grid we have in this country. As an Electrical Engineer who has spent numerous years serving utilities, I have personally seen the decrepit equipment, wiring, etc. In Small Town USA, the electrical utilities are purchased from a larger provider, since these small towns are served by some sort of cooperative. And there are way more small towns then there are large municipalities - by far.
To others who are Pro-Plug-in:
When you start receiving your light bill and are shocked that it costs SO much to recharge ANY plug-in car each and every night, don't come crying to me. You must realize that from the utility's standpoint, they have 0 idea what's using so much power and will charge you anyway.
To Johnny Utah:
Yes, I would expect the electric bill to increase - but the per-mile cost of "driving electric" is about 1/4 to 1/5 the per mile of driving on gasoline, so my gasoline bill would decrease a lot more than my electric bill would increase, saving money overall. I'd consider that a very good thing!
@EdinPIX
Give yer head a shake!
You quite obviously don't understand how the Volt or Prius work if you believe they are "exactly alike"
The plug-in Prius CANNOT operate as a "full-range" (any speed, and rate of acceleration) electric vehicle- EVER! (the Volt can and does for the first 25-50 miles) This is because plug-in Prius requires ICE to light up an take over whenever above 80% throttle OR if speed is above 61mph. Even if you manage to stay within those parametrs, maximum limited EV range is only 12-13 miles. Barely a fraction of people travel that short of distance daily so your annual fuel consumed will be many times that of the Volt.
The Volt powertrain is pure EV for the first 40 miles, and after that right on up to 70mph, efterwhich the transmission is "reconfigured" to improve electrical efficiency by permitting ICE to affect the output split planetary gearset, by slowing the traction motor's rotational speed. (without effecting road speed)
This is precisely why GM has refrained from calling it a series hybrid. It was people like YOU that "bucked" the term EREV in favor of series hybrid. (something it may still behave as in charge sustaining mode at speeds less than 60mph)
In any case the vast majority of people that travel less than 40 miles a day will still burn a fraction of the fuel annually. Fo mny people travelling 15000 miles most "typically" the Volt will use ~70gallons annually compared to the Prius 300 gallons. Travelling longer distances, more often will reduce those numbers somewhat, but not as much as you might think.
Starting with a full charge someone drives 200 miles, they will get the exact same 50 mpg as a Prius (and 30% better than a hybrid Camry) Driving any further than that, mpg will gradually degrade and level out at 40mpg after ~1000 miles (still not too shabby, about thesame as a Fusion and and WAY better than the hybrid Camry )
Thanks WopOnTour, glad to see someone here has some logic :-)
I hate to break it to you, but GM engineers have changed the design. The original Volt prototype was a plug-in series hybrid with no mechanical connection between engine and the wheels, but they found that the energy conversion losses were resulting in low fuel economy in "range extender mode". So they changed it to allow some of the engine power to be transmitted to the wheels using a more efficient mechanical link, and from the description it does sound remarkably like the hybrid system used by Toyota and Ford. It is a "split path" hybrid with characteristics of both series and parallel hybrid systems, just like the Prius and Ford Fusion hybrids. One wonders if GM made a patent licensing agreement with Toyota and Ford, or if they somehow made it different enough to get around their patents.
Now there are a few differences between the new Volt and the planned Plug-in Prius: The Volt has a larger more powerful battery and uses more powerful motor/generators, that allows a greater electric range, and that extra power lets GM engineers use a different gearing ratio in their planetary gearset, thus allowing a higher 70 mph "electric only" speed compared to the Plug-in Prius 62 mph. Note that the new Volt design does require the engine to run at speeds above 70 mph, though the battery still contributes and helps keep the fuel economy high. The Volt will use less fuel for around town driving if it is regularly plugged in, an advantage, but the Plug-in Prius will be $10,000 less, thanks to its smaller, less expensive batteries.
Do you even read the article??
You are "quite obviously don't understand how the Volt work"
By tapping engine directly, it is PROVEN that Volt is a hybrid and not an EV.
It is like saying 18K gold is not pure gold but 20K is. Guess what! neither of them are.
Neither Pruis nor Volt are true EV, just that Goverment motor tried to sell theirs as one by lying to American taxpayers.
Great, we can spend $70,000 so we can get 40 mpg. Its a joke.
Why would you pay $70,000 for one of these when the MSRP is around $41,000? Did you even look up the MSRP for this or just throw out a random number?
Gary: go for the extended warranty and you'll be fine mechanically. No worries.
Edin: this is all evolving, emerging tech. The fact that GM finally got off it's duff to do it right is what is important right now. Within five years I'm sure the car will be massively upgraded. This is a first generation product, just like a blu ray player it's going to have it's growing pains, but let's not strangle it in the crib by placing unrealistic expectations on it. If you honestly feel mislead, don't buy one. But if you want to do something to help move America towards a less-foreign-oil fueled future, I say give it a try.
John: with state and federal subsidies it should shake out to be around 30-35K.
Is this the greatest car ever? Who knows. What I DO know is that it's an important baby step for America to get off foreign oil. Forget the global warming angle for the moment, it's foreign oil and our dollars flying out the front door that's helping fund anti-American terrorism. I say: bring on the hybrid/electric/horse and buggy vehicles now!
From what I understand, Chevrolet Volt in general could be called an EV.
Unlike a battery only EV, the Volt can run using gasoline, in fact it doesn't have to be plugged in, a convenience if electrical outlets are not available. Of course, it is cheaper to run on electricity than on gasoline, so owners would want to plug in often.
Much more accurate to call it a "plug-in hybrid", after all, like other hybrids it does have two different power sources, but unlike most other hybrids it can be plugged in to use cheap electricity from the grid to reduce use of expensive gasoline.
Who cares about purity? Even if its running via rubber bands. The outcome is the potential huge reduction in use of imported oil, reduction in green house gases (the grid gets cleaner over time check the literature) and jobs in the USA. We could use the money for our economy, stop fighting wars over oil and paying people who hate us....and incidently, some of that money is no doubt aiding people who are killing our kids. The driving habits in the USA are documented. 78% of the daily communte is less than 40 miles. The grid electric supply is by far domesticly powered. Check www.gm-volt.com ....do your homework!
Check www.gm-volt.com ....do your homework! Ha you've got to be kidding I seriously doubt I'll take into consideration anything that GM tells the American public if they aren't lying about paying back their debt...they'll lie about the cars they produce in order to gain reconition. Either way I'm not buying into this electric car buzz it's great technology but it's still too new to really make any type of impact. Overloading our electric grid isn't the answer...hell California has to borrow power from Arizona what makes you think that our currect electrical grid could support 200 million electric cars...pfft. Then on top of that actually finding anyone but the dealership to work on your car in addition to the extremely costly batteries (10k+) that need to be replaced every 5-10 years...cost of recharging (and creating electricity)...price of car... etc... and I really don't think you're coming out ahead...
geez, Wilson, your arguments remind me of the silly hybrid myths that used to go around. Turns out those hybrid batteries lasted a lot longer than critics had predicted, there are 10 year old Priuses still running around with their original batteries, and some Priuses have gone over 200,000 miles on their original batteries. No reason why the newer plug-in batteries can't do just as well.
You're right that the current grid can't support 200 million cars, but considering it took 10 years to sell 2 million hybrids - worldwide - it will be a very long time before we have that many plug-ins! Since most recharging will be done at night when power demand is lowest, the current power grid can support a million plug-ins, we'll have plenty of time to upgrade the grid before we exceed that capacity.
As for cost, well, if cost is your only criteria, then buy a used Corolla and drive as little as possible, or better yet, buy a bicycle and save both gas and the price of a gym membership! People do make car buying decisions for many reasons, not just price alone. BTW, the "fuel cost" of driving electric is about 1/4 to 1/5 the fuel cost of driving a gasser - something to consider if you're willing to lay down some serious money on a new car, and intend to drive a lot.
Let me get this straight. AFTER GM gave the basic specs MONTHS ago there were journalists who thought that the Volt was an electric car? Your kidding? LMAO!
As an owner of not just one, but two Priuses (Preii?), we like them, and are very happy with the mileage we get (43 - 50mpg) and the carrying capacity they offer. I'll be interested in how much camping gear can be crammed into a Volt, and I don't suppose there will be charging capability in any campgounds I'll use, so it's more a hybrid than pure EV the way I would use it. By the way, the Toyotas we own, $17,000 for one (used 2006 bought w/52,000 miles), and the other (new in 2007 for $22,000 as I recall). These Chevys seem pricey... how much are we willing to pay for American jobs? How much of the Volt will be made overseas? And the BIG (for me) question: When will someone come out with a smallish hybrid pickup truck? Like a Ford Ranger or Toyota Tacoma size... I don't care if its hybrid, EV or flux capacitor drive - I just want good mileage and room for camping gear and sleeping space. It's considered unwise to sleep in bear country in a tent, even with precautions and careful preparations.
I have driven in a Volt it is a great car. If you have the typical day you will rarely use gas. Doesn't matter how the gas engine works if most days you drive less then 40 miles. Also the performance is much better then your Toyota. The price difference cleary gives you a better car. I believe the cost as stated for 40 miles is between 1.60 and 1.90 for overnight charge.
Well, the Volt is a bit bigger than the standard Prius - but latest word is that Toyota is planning two additional Prius models, with one being a bit bigger, with seating for 7. Toyota is also planning to revive the RAV4-EV using a Tesla designed battery pack, no word yet on range or performance, or when it will go on sale.
Not suprizing from a company's whose technological innovation, excelent styling and great manufacturing practices has lead it to a downfall and need for subsidy. Its clearly not an electric car, its a hybrid - overpriced and underperforming next to the Prius.
What I want to know, is how many kW does it take to charge it up. Assume it is dead or near there. How much power is the hotel "giving" you (I am assuming they don't have a set price for EV charging)?
To avoid over stressing the battery and achieve long battery life, the Volt uses half of the 16 Kwh capacity, or 8 Kwh. So a full charge will use about 10 Kwh (some energy is used to run charging circuitry) which would take 10 to 12 hours from a standard outlet, or about 3 hours from a 220 volt 30 amp outlet.
Of course, since the Volt has a gas engine, it can run on gasoline even if it doesn't get a full charge, and can even run if it can't be charged at all.
CM has it pretty much right. As I mentioned in a reply to a comment on an earlier post, Car and Driver found that it took 13.4 kwh to get the Volt fully charged. Takes 9 to 10 hours with 110v, 3.5 to 4 hours with 240v. Also, 240v charging is more efficient, so it would take less kwh to fully charge.
Thanks for the correction, Alan. Sometimes my memory is a bit off!
These cars are easier to peel off the bug screen of my Ford 350 4-door pickup than the road kill.
Every time there's change or at least the attempt to push a shift in automobile technology [even if it's not a radical shift], the nay sayers rear their ugly heads to protest the latest new horseless carriage.
Everything is a process, but granted some are better than others. I'll stick with my proven 01' VW TDI that comfortably gets 46 MPG [only 42 on it's worst day]. EV's are a long way off [IMO] from convincing me to replace my car with one.
But I'm supportive of the process and evolving technology of EV's, and in the years to come, I'll keep an open mind.
I agree, while I feel the Volt is a good start, we need a lot of improvements in battery technology (and a solid plan for disposing of them safely at end-of-life) before EV's will really start to take over.
GM has already come up with a solid plan for disposing of their batteries. If you would do a little more research before speaking you would know that. Despite the batteries having a 8 year 100000 mile warranty they will be used to store power coming off of wind powered windmills when they are retired from the vehicle.
My Nissan hybrid averages 33 mpg with all the short trips and the stop and go driving caused by red lights. It can get 40 mpg on open level highways and even 43 mpg on trips into and out of NYC. It seems that at half the cost I am getting about the same performance. BTW - where and how are all these KW being generated that will recharge these cars? Solar or Coal/Gas/Oil electrical facilities. (That's a rhetorical question.)
But if you drove a Volt, you wouldn't be using ANY gas on those short trips. You make a good point about the base source of the electricity though.
Here in the Pacific NW, hydro is a major component of the electric mix. Folks are able to hook up their home solar panels to a system to charge the vehicle. Taking energy out of the vehicle (V2G) is more challenging, but it could be an option in the future.
Does it matter, you ask? Yes, it does matter if a corporation lies to it's public, investors and the government in order to get massive subsidies on the project because it's so "innovative." Remember the photos of the GM honchos in front of the building-sized banner proclaiming the Volt will get 230 MPG? I do, and the fact that the car now only gets 30-40 MPG is a big deal. As to the "hybrid or something totally different," that matters, too. GM to this moment still claims that "The Chevrolet Volt is not a hybrid. It is a one-of-a-kind, all-electrically driven vehicle" (see: http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/vehicles/chevrolet/volt/2011.brand_chevrolet.html ).
Engineering decisions change - that's fine, but that is not a reason for lying to everyone.
BTW, the "patent" argument is just a smoke screen. You file a patent to protect your IP; getting it accepted is a separate matter, takes years, and one does not wait for putting the invention into production until the patent is approved. Just another lie, passed on by GM to gullible journalist...
I remember seeing the Volt at the LA Auto Show and asking the Chevy rep: "If it has a gasoline engine and electric motors, how come you guys insist it isn't a hybrid?" And the answer was: "Because the only power to the wheels comes from the electric motors. That makes it, by definition, an electric car."
Now we discover that's not true. As Chevy and GM work to regain the trust of American consumers, lying to them isn't very helpful.
From what I understand, Chevrolet Volt in general could be called an EV with some oil-friendliness inside. .
While major carmakers in the U.S. are playing a wait & see game, the American breakthrough battery technology by Boston Power found a home at a Swedish player ( 9-3 ePower electric family estate car ).
Critics say moving on to EVs is gambling, but I'd rather say status-quo would be just Sinking without swimming.
Apart from unaffordable niche vehicles like the Tesla, we're not likely to see real all-electric vehicles for quite a few years. Not only is the battery technology not quite there but, as GM's EV1 all-electric vehicle proved, the auto dealers (who have not an insignificant influence on the industry) are not supportive of all-electric vehicles.
When the EV1 was in the midst of its brief model life, all lessees (there were never any EV1 owners, only lessees) were required to bring their vehicles in to dealers for regular checkups. During these checkups, the dealers discovered that the vehicles needed practically no regular maintenance. Naturally, they would eventually need tires, wipers, shock absorbers, etc. But the major maintenance cost items--oil change, oil filter, exhaust, tune-ups, air filters, radiator work, emissions control, engine control, ignition, fuel injection, timing belt, etc, etc, etc,--all have to do with the engine. With no engine, there's virtually no regular maintenance. With no regular maintenance, car dealers lose a major portion of their profit. Hybrids are much more palatable to car dealers because they still have engines and still need all of those regularly scheduled engine maintenance visits that occur dozens of time during the live of the vehicle, for which dealers charge $500-$1000+ apiece.
This is not a true electric vehicle. The Volt has a 1.4 liter gas engine which runs the generator when the batteries go dry. It no different than a Prius, except for one thing, the price, Prius, $25,000, Volt, $40,000, do the math.
GM engages the engine when driving fast or climbing hills. This extended battery life and made the car perform well. It is an electric car with engine assist rather than the other way around. I think they made the right decision.
So does this mean if I commute 15 miles (round trip 30) but I do it by Highway I wouldn't get to experience the Electric Only mode?
All this talk about getting ahead... LOL who is going to get ahead? not the general population! it's all lies and bait and switch... you will not get ahead buying.... consumers are slaves... debt is slavery... GM lies... current world record holder for supermilage is over 10,000 mpg!!! but they can't make a car that gets decent milage... LOL
All this talk about getting ahead... LOL who is going to get ahead? not the general population! it's all lies and bait and switch... you will not get ahead buying.... consumers are slaves... debt is slavery... GM lies... current world record holder for supermilage is over 10,000 mpg!!! but they can't make a car that gets decent milage??? LOL