Respectfully -

The Genesis story of creation communicates to me that...

It's a story by early man trying to explain his world.

As to if this type of wisdom should be taught in our education system,

You are slanting it in your favor. It is quite a reach to say a story which has no proof of being anything more than a myth is "wisdom".

...move a way from being threatened by each others beliefs or lack thereof and stop being so critical...

I'm not threatened by your beliefs. But if you want to be public with your beliefs then expect blowback from those who do not believe in Thor, Zeus, Jesus Christ, Allah, Flying Spaghetti Monster...

...yes why not teach the possibly abstract thought processes of religion as well as the scientific accurate as we know it now stuff too.

Simply because it is not biological science, they are YOUR religious beliefs. IMHO, it is just a myth and I object to it as strenuously as I would teaching human birth along with the Stork Method of delivering babies!

I wish to be respectful, but I sometimes feel I should be emphatic. So, this looks disrespectful, but it is for emphasis sake - I would like you to keep your Christian horse@!$%# stories out of my kids' science classes. I'm sorry if that offends you, but I wanted to drive the message home.

Let me put it in another light. What if we taught the scientific explanation for evolution and then the Islamic stories of creation? Would you be happy to include that religious viewpoint in our science classes? Just those two. Think about it. This is why we teach science in science class and religion in religious classes.

But if we are going to continue to be alienated by each others opinions and beliefs

BUT, your religious opinions and beliefs do not belong in a science class.

Just keep Godless science

More bias from you. It is not godless science, it is simply unadulterated science, not mixed with anyone's brand of religious beliefs. Just science trying to explain how our natural world works, which is outside of the supernatural, if the supernatural exists.

...and unyielding conservative creationism in the church or private schools.

Gotcha! Although the scientific method clearly shows that the earth formed is 4.5 bya and the dinosaurs died 65 mya, keep the unyielding dogma of religious beliefs which ignores the hard fought acquisition of knowledge.

Hi Jack, I have no problem with honest debate in fact the testing of my faith is very important to me. If I sense that others are sincer in there criticism of my opinions then I must give them their due respect else my faith in God is week. I do have a problem with those that seem to have at there only disposole the diposition to put others down and characterize them with the attribute of being foolish or unworthy stupid humans for having faith in God. I would Like to continue this coversation but I must go for right now. Talk Latter

Hi Respectfully-,

I have no problem with honest debate...

Same here.

Now, my first recollection of you is this...

I do have a problem with those that seem to have ... the diposition to put others down and characterize them with the attribute of being foolish or unworthy stupid humans for having faith in God.

Now, I do have a problem with those that seem to have ... the diposition to put others down and characterize them with the attribute of being foolish or unworthy stupid humans for NOT having faith in God.

To wit, a page filling up my entire computer screen with Christian preaching and proselytizing. I don't need to be preached to with your Christian beliefs. Remember, this is not a pulpit in your place of worship. You were talking down to us as if we were children needing your Christian guidance.

Then, you end it with a b*tchslap -

People this is not foolishness, be brave and check it out for yourself.

Yep, we are all cowards. Only you Christians are brave. I would also venture to guess some of us are older than you. Thanks for telling us at our stage of life that we are wrong and you are correct.

...those that seem to have...the diposition to put others down...

May I respectfully and sincerely suggest you go no further than your own mirror?

Jack: you wrote,

You are slanting it in your favor. It is quite a reach to say a story which has no proof of being anything more than a myth is "wisdom".

But I must take issue with this, because mythology is one of the predominant methods that wisdom is taught and understood- for example, the myth of Icharus as a warning against pride and hubris, or, more simply, Little Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf acting as a cautionary tale not to speak with strangers. Wisdom is often described in myth because the creatures and characters are more identifiable along the Jungian archetypes and take on a more important status than if one were to simply state "don't be so boastful" or "don't talk to people you don't know." The stories provide a framework for the consequences of faulty actions-- true or not, myths absolutely contain wisdom.

Now, I mean that as a direct response to that one statement. I am college educated and believe in evolution (I had my doubts until I took Anthropology 101-- we spent two weeks on evolution where it was explained to me, the evidence was presented and I happily agreed that my father was misguided in his adamant refusal of evolution. The evidence is simply overwhelming).

WMG -

I understand your point, however the "wisdom" referred to here is the "wisdom" of creationism. Thus the fail.

mythology is one of the predominant methods that wisdom is taught and understood

Too bad so many confuse a parable with observable data.

Respectfully-

...my lengthy writing and words could be taken as preachy and a put down ...

Once again, fair enough and we'll just put all that behind us and speak no more of it. I guess it is now my turn to turn down the volume, so to speak.

...it seems your major concern is the education system should only teach science that has verifiable and has been proven...

I wouldn't necessarily say proven, but rather supported by the evidence. So with that subtle change in nuance, I'd say your statement is a fair assessment.

...in your opinion God can not be proven to exist a curriculum where the posibility of God as the creator should not be tolerated.

I'ts not so much that as it is anything having to do with god is outside the boundaries of school and its curriculum. Bear in mind you believe in Christianity so it seems reasonable to you. However, what if it were not Christian teachings, but rather Islamic ones? Then would it be okay? I would guess not. Another person (gordy) who posts here whom I often agree with made this post in another vine, "Schools are meant to teach facts, knowledge, and critical thinking. They are not meant for religious training or instruction".

Although I disagree with this position I am willing to admit to the reality of a major portion of our society is like mindedness to your position these days.

Isn't that for the best? Should students of Moslem, Jewish, Hindu, or other faiths be subjected to Christian teachings as fact. I believe you'll find they all have their own creation stories. Religious instruction should be restricted to the religious institutions where others of differing faiths or no faith are not subjected to those teachings. I think this is fair.

Is it right to you that those of us who do believe that God created everything are forced to have are children and grandchildren taught that it is posible that God does not exist...

I don't believe that is a fair assessment of what public schools teach. The topic of god is off limits (separation of church and state). What public shools teach are the subjects without any mention of god at all. This goes for the Islamic god, the Christian god, the Hindu gods, etc. You may feel that biological or physical (cosmological) sciences teach students there is no god, but strictly speaking, they don't - they are silent on the matter. However, we do find a correlation between those who have advanced degrees in the sciences and those who do not believe in god.

...and everything that does exist possibly just happend by chance (Which also can't be proven)?

Science doesn't have answers to many questions, however science works within the natural world seeking explanations within the natural world. Valid science that is accepted around the world by those who know and can defend it state that the earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old, that dinosaurs died off 65 million years ago, and that hominids have been evolving for more than 2 million years. Why would we not want to teach this? This is was what science has yielded after a hard fought struggle. If stories or religious doctrines from any "holy" book disagree with scientific results, then it is up to religious scholars to reconcile their religion to science, not the other way around. To change scientific teachings due to outside pressure from any particular organized religion would be intellectual dishonesty and scientific debauchery.

Thanks for your conversation.

Thank you. I enjoyed our discussion, too.

I can see that I have some learning to do ahead of me.

If I may be so bold, I would highly recommend you read the book Why Evolution is True by Jerry Coyne. While you may be somewhat put off by the title, it is an interesting book which explains much of the reasoning behind the acceptance of evolution. Jerry does dip into some "thick" science a couple of times which went over my head, but I simply continued on. For the most part, it is geared towards the lay reader. I'd really like to hear your feedback on the book.

Congratulations on your family. It's tough nowdays to raise a family. Wow, 8 grandkids! I'm definitely not ready for that. Oh yeah, you are a tad older than..., cough cough, I mean you are way, way, way older than I am.

...but I also think that evolution is a valid science...

I do hope your read the book Why Evolution is True. I am looking forward to your feedback.

BTW - I was working on the Christmas decorations earlier today and I did set out the crèche (nativity scene) since my daughter wished it and as a small concession to you.

That's funny you should mention christians apprehension to the koran because of 9/11, I often wonder if christians really think of their religion as being as American as apple pie. I bet they think of John as a good American name as well. The truth is that christianity is as Arabic as the muslim religion, and John is really short for Johnathan which is just a mispronouncing of the Arabic Yūḥannā. They need to realize that judaism, muslim, and christianity are all from the same region and share most of the same beliefs, yet they view the others as outsiders and foreign. I always thought is was just the mormons that thought jesus was a white guy with light brown hair, it seems that most christians forget that jesus was jewish and Israelite. Funny.

MacGyver,

Thanks for your comment, If I have this correct and I am sure knowledgeable ones will let me know if I do not, evolution studies seem to point to Africa for the first origins of man. The picture that is in my minds imagination from these studies is as migration of humans from that point spread out and started to become uniquely aware of their existence and surroundings (form that of other creatures) they began to ask the big questions that we are still asking today which ties in to the reason we are all having this discussion. Not far from Africa is the places where some of the main religions of the world have their origins as such that you were talking about. As humans began to develop the ability to communicate orally and by various symbols, one of the things they began using this unique ability to do was to inscribe their thoughts and beliefs of these big questions and there began the evolution of religion. I concurr with what I think you are saying and that is that we are all tied together in some way and names like John have way back origins. But what the heck is wrong with good old American Apple Pie and Base Ball and Foot ball (Go Cowboys). If you have questions on how my Christianity ties in with this please ask but I do not want to be reproemanded by the more experienced communicators of this news vine for being to preachy any more. Maybe they will let me explain my love of the Lord if I am asked.

@ Respect --

Please, explain away.

In some ways, I think you've already answered some of your own questions.

You can see (or are comfortable with,) the migration of man from Africa* and you can comprehend a timeframe in which man began to develop different religions based on different geographies due to expansion. So, what's the question?

I'm confused on how you can't find/see the correlation between your faith ... and the fact that it has an obvious stamp of manmade origins? I think where theists have a great deal of confusion is their assumptions that an atheist "rejects" the idea of god. I can tell you this is simply false. All an atheist is is someone who has read your book and that of the Quran (and usually many others) and finds them all to be equally accurate in their assumptions. Which, is to say, equally false, manmade interpretations of the world. And, we propose the notion that in the 21st century ... we have better interpretations/explanations of the world and our universe. And, the last thing we need to do is look into archaic, ancient books full of violence and death in order to provide a global outlook on our futures, our morals, and our understandings of truth.

This doesn't negate "god" ... as that is simply an unknowable factor in the equation. The fact however remains. The more and more we learn, the less and less we need to evoke a "god" for answers.

*While the dominant idea is that our origins are from Africa, there is another hypothesis with gaining evidence that shows support for an exodus from Asia as well. I haven't studied the new evidence enough to provide any reliable traction however.

Hi Chad,

Thanks for giving me a chance to explain. It looks like this News Vine is about to run out of momentum though. First of all I really was not asking any questions per say. I have just been putting in my two cents worth in on a very controversial subject through out our country's history. Reading the many comments posted here has shed some light on the reasoning of those that do not want any kind of religious points of view or beliefs taught in our childrens science public education system. I have studied creationalist educational literature and as a Christian I have problems with many of the assertions, such as the young universe theory which seems unlikely to me simply because of what can be known about the age of the universe as reveled by light travlel time. This technique is thought to be extremely accurate. Although I must say some creationist counter that with the possibility that the distortion of gravity on light distorts the calculations.

Happy am I that my faith in God the father and his Son Jesus is not based on what I know or do not know about these things about origins. Never the less the subject is extremely interesting to me. Although I try to do this myself I think that it may be pointless to try and perfectly line up my faith in the bible with what is discovered by science to a point where everything makes sense. I can speculate about all kinds of possibilities that seem to make sense to me for a while but there is always a nagging gut level feeling that I am probably wrong or just not totally accurate. Some Christian find it extremely important to believe what the bible says and just as it says. Others think that indeed much of the creation and other stories are myths that have a spiritual meaning. I am some where in between. It is very hard for me to believe that there was a talking serpent in the garden of Eden for example. In fact my mind says that the whole Garden of Eden story must be a myth that represents a condition of human'ssoul and relationship with God. On the other had I believe there was a real King David and Soloman. And I am absolutly sure that there is a Jesus and He was crusified by the Roman government.

I believe my faith has come to me because I asked God for faith but even saying that as if I did something to receive that faith such as asking for it seems dishonest. I feel I had to come to a point in my life where I recognized that I needed God in my life. That I could not figure it all out myself. That I was selfish and unappreciative of what lifehad given me such as a wife and children. I also felt the extreme fear of punishment of Hell even though I did not feel I did anything to deserve punishment for ever. So during that time the best thing for me to do was to convince myself that God did not exist and to rebel towards anything and any one that said He did. For me to live a life like this was Hell already. I finally picked up a bible and started reading the Gospels and asked God "If you do exist please show your self to me" I was 20 years old at that time I am 58 now.God has been reveling his Son to me more and more as time goes by. There has been several times since that I thought I lost my faith in part because of what I seen and experienced in the Christian churches and circles. It truly is like the Scribes and the Pharisees out there sometimes. The political power hungry agendas, The holly-er then thou attitudes, the mutable denominations saying they have the better interpretation of what is right and had the right doctrine for salvation and the mega church leadership getting rich from their congregations. I said to myself I quit its all crazy I am just going to live my life and stop thinking about it all. Soon after that I realized that the Lord was still with me and not at all disappointed with me for giving up. In fact it was like he was saying it was about time. I honestly said to myself Lord so you are still there. I have come to realize from these things and much more that the Lord is with me for ever and so therefore my faith should be too. He is not with me because I got everything right in biblical doctrine or rather I attend church, (all though I do) or rather I even loose my faith. I am finely learning too that I got to get my attention away from the behavior of every one else even my own and learn more of God and follow Jesus. So that is what I am attempting to do here. For any that read the things that I have wrote and fill that I have been less then respectful to you and the purpose of this news vine please let me Know but all I can say is the subject matter and the comments preceding motivated me to try and communicate somethings I thought you might consider. I surly meant no disrespect.

@Respect

I can understand and respect your opinion completely.

My view however, would simply be to remind you that if you had (for example) been born in Iran. At, lets say 20 .... you began your rebellion and your quest for "something more." You would still look to god perhaps. However, instead of professing unwithering love for Jesus, it would be the holy prophet Muhammad that you would be telling me about. You would reference his grace and beauty, and how through him ... you have found truth within your life and the holy Quran.

This is really the whole point of a secular point of view. We, as self-reflecting creatures tend to forget just how big the world is. And, that there are a myriad of creation myths out there that penetrate the human condition. We fight this notion simply because most theists reject the idea that they've come to their faith merely through the accidence of birth. Religion, as it turns out is much more of a cultural inheritance than a divine inoculation. So, scientists, atheists, secularists and the like continue the fight for reason and intellectual honesty based within science and observation.

Now, to your more "spiritual" quest. I freely admit feelings of the transcendent and the numinous. However, I believe it's our duty to separate these feelings from the supernatural. In a sense, there's simply no good reason to tell/lie to ourselves and pretend to know things that we can't possibly know. So, I find it much more humbling an experience to admit that "if" there is a god, I surely don't know his mind, or believe he created the vastness of the universe just for me. As I said, I'm an atheist. But, most times I feel greatly more spiritual than anyone around me. Especially the religious who tell me they see truth through revelation .... and better yet ... all I need to do is read a book to get it.

Moreover, an atheist is free to admit the things we don't know. That's the definition of being a skeptic. It's quite beautiful and humbling. When I look to the heavens and see the vastness and beauty, and contemplate that the universe wasn't created "for" me. But, rather that I was created "with" the universe; I am in the universe, and the universe is in me.

That makes me smile. That makes me feel rather large at the end of the day .... rather good.

Regardless,

Neither of us can/will convince the other. So, hopefully you find peace in your faith, and I in my life.

Be well

Hi Chad, I can appreciate your view in fact I have often thought of the same things that you talked about as far as one usually takes on the faith of their heritage. Think about this though, that is the very problem that the Scribes, Pharisees and other Jewish people had with Jesus which eventually caused them to turn him over to the Roman government to be dealt with. They klinged to the Tarrah (old testament) and their rlidgious heritage so much while thinking that they had the superior religion and they failed to realise that their very scripture prophesied of a suffering and servitude Messiah. Jesus told them "Search the Scriptures because you think that they have life but it is they that bare witness to me". To me Christians do the same thing they hold so tightly to the bible insted of listening to the lord in their hearts. I am not to excited about any religion including Christianity Un less it is humble, respectful of others and of a true service to people. Thanks for your conversation and you do well too friend.