Meteorite mysteries go viral

R. Hoover / Journal of Cosmology

An image created using a field-emission scanning electron microscope shows a coiled filament that was found within a carbonaceous meteorite. The scale bar indicates a length of 20 microns.

Last updated 7 p.m. ET March 8:

A NASA researcher's claim that organisms from outer space have been found within a rare class of meteorites certainly sparked a lot of comments over the weekend, from experts on astrobiology and microbiology as well as from the public at large. Some of the commentators have been pretty scathing. David Morrison, senior scientist for the NASA Astrobiology Institute, told me in an e-mail that the paper really should have been published on April Fool's Day. Pharyngula's P.Z. Myers, a biologist at the University of Minnesota at Morris, said "this work is garbage" and voiced surprise that anyone was taking it seriously.

Now the Journal of Cosmology, which published the much-debated paper by NASA biologist Richard Hoover, has added a batch of commentaries from a variety of researchers and others. Here are some of the folks in the journal's lineup:


  • Cody Youngbull of the University of Arizona's Biodesign Institute notes that Hoover's claims have "gone viral, with major media news sources and Internet blogs all carrying reports of this story. And so too the experts, for whom this information is not new, who have been monitoring the accounts of fossils in these same meteorites since 1961, have something to get excited about. ... This is because, while the elemental and mineral composition data remains identical to prior accepted reports, the morphological data far exceeds anything yet shown on the subject."
  • Harrison Schmitt, the Apollo 17 scientist-astronaut who went from walking on the moon to serving in the U.S. Senate and who is now a researcher at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, says he can't pass judgment on the research itself. Instead, he wonders "why many do not seem to want life to have originated independently on Earth. ... We just have to figure out how it all happened."
  • Patrick Godon, an astrophysicist at Villanova University, says Hoover "presents firm evidence" that fossil microbes are embedded within the meteorites, but he says it's "debatable" whether the microbes came from Earth or from somewhere else in outer space.
  • Elena Pikuta, a microbiologist from the University of Alabama at Huntsville who has collaborated with Hoover, says the study "represents a sensational discovery which will have the potential to change our understanding on the origin of biosphere." The findings from the meteorites were "analyzed and interpreted according to the current standards in science using highly sensitive laboratory techniques," she says.
  • Tulane University physicist Frank Tipler, author of the controversial book "The Physics of Immortality," says that "although Hoover has done as much as is possible with his small sample, we cannot yet conclude that he has indeed seen fossil cyanobacteria."

The journal may have decided against immediately publishing some of the responses it received, based on the missing numbers in the order of the commentaries. As of late today, No. 15 out of 21 was still missing  — and No. 11, attributed to Cardiff University astrobiologist Chandra Wickramasinghe and carrying the subtitle "A Vindication of Panspermia," wasn't yet displayed on the page.

Generally speaking, the journal's commentaries don't provide the kind of hard-hitting criticism that some of the better-known outside experts on microbiology have been voicing in other forums. But they do suggest that Hoover's claims will continue to be debated rather than going immediately into the trash can.

Update for 11 a.m. ET: In a statement distributed by the SpaceRef website, one of NASA's top scientists says the space agency does not support Hoover's findings. Here's the word from Paul Hertz, chief scientist of the Science Mission Directorate at NASA Headquarters in Washington:

"NASA is a scientific and technical agency committed to a culture of openness with the media and public. While we value the free exchange of ideas, data and information as part of scientific and technical inquiry, NASA cannot stand behind or support a scientific claim unless it has been peer-reviewed or thoroughly examined by other qualified experts. This paper was submitted in 2007 to the International Journal of Astrobiology. However, the peer review process was not completed for that submission. NASA also was unaware of the recent submission of the paper to the Journal of Cosmology or of the paper's subsequent publication. Additional questions should be directed to the author of the paper."

Meanwhile, Universe Today's Nancy Atkinson got in touch with Chris McKay, an astrobiologist at NASA's Ames Research Center. Here's a sampling from McKay's comments:

"The implication of these results is that the meteorite hosted a liquid water environment in contact with sunlight and high oxygen. ... Richard Hoover is a careful and accomplished microscopist so there is every reason to believe that the structures he sees are present and are not due to contamination. If these structures had been reported from sediments from a lake bottom there would be no question that they were classified correctly as biological remains."

McKay also acknowledged, however, that the structures could turn out to be "chance shapes" that just happen to look like pieces of an organism. That kind of interpretation was put forward to explain the "nanofossils" seen in a meteorite from Mars back in 1996. Moreover, if the structures do turn out to be cyanobacteria, and they're not contaminants, it'd be hard to explain in biological terms how they could survive on a meteorite in space.

Update for 11:30 a.m. ET: One of the questions that has come up is, "If they really did find alien life, why isn't this research being published by one of the big scientific journals, such as Science or Nature, rather than some little online publication that's on the brink of going out of business?" Lana Tao, managing editor for the Journal of Cosmology, addressed that question in an e-mailed statement:

"The Journal of Cosmology has received e-mails asking why Dr. Hoover's paper was not published in Science or Nature. We are aware that individuals who may or may not be associated with these publications are posting ad hominem attacks, which essentially wish the public to believe that if Dr. Hoover's article was really important it would have been published by these other journals. These are tantamount to schoolyard taunts by jealous children.

"1) First, Dr. Hoover's article was an original contribution and had not been submitted to these two periodicals.

"2) Secondly, both Science and Nature have a nasty history of rejecting extremely important papers, some of which later earned the author's a Noble Prize [sic]. Use Google keywords search for a wealth of info.  Nature magazine admits to this, though they put a positive spin on these rejections.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v425/n6959/full/425645a.html

"3) Editors at Science have been accused of using the Bible to make editorial decisions by scientists such as Dr. Gil Levin (who devised the famous NASA Viking Mars Experiments). 

"4) It is a matter of public record that the organization which publishes science magazine have engaged in illegal anti-competitive practices designed to harm the Journal of Cosmology. The continuing success of JOC poses a competitive threat to their business model. We should not be surprised their 'hand puppets' are complaining that JOC published this article, and not them.

"5) Science and Nature are in the business of making money. The Journal of Cosmology is free, open access, and is in the business of promoting science.

"6) Science and Nature protect the status quo, and have a history of rejecting great papers.

"7) In less than 2 years, the Journal of Cosmology has become one of the top online science journals, with nearly a million hits for January. Our mission is to advance science.

"8) The ad hominem attacks and complaints by those say Dr. Hoover's article should have been published in these other periodicals, and not JOC, are just sour grapes and should not be taken seriously.

"9) We have repeatedly offered to publish critical commentary. We are still waiting."

Update for noon ET: Bad Astronomy's Phil Plait says he's come to the conclusion that "Hoover's claims are wrong," based on many of the factors we've been talking about (criticism of methods from microbiologists, questions about the venue for publication, scant peer review and lack of NASA support, etc.). One of the more interesting angles comes from his e-mail exchange with Penny Boston, an astrobiologist and geologist at New Mexico Tech who is an expert on extremophiles in caves. Her view is that it's virtually impossible to rule out the possibility of earthly contamination just by looking at something in a rock sample, due to the ubiquity of life on Earth. Here's a sample quote:

"Rocks, even the most high density materials, are prone to microfractures. Microorganisms are notoriously splendid at working their way into incredibly minute microfractures. ...

"Showing that the bug that you have actually is NOT a contaminant organism that made its way into a meteorite is a practically unsolvable problem. If you turn up an organism whose chemistry, way of coding information, or something else (besides morphology) indicates that it is significantly (and I MEAN significantly) different from anything that has ever been seen on Earth, THEN you might have a chance of proving this. Pictures of tube shaped structures don’t do it."

Update for 2:40 p.m. ET: Carl Pilcher, director of the NASA Astrobiology Institute, told The Associated Press that the structures seen in the meteorite are most likely earthly contamination. He turned thumbs down on Hoover's claim that they were extraterrestrial organisms:

"There has been no one in the scientific community, certainly no one in the meteorite analysis community, that has supported these conclusions. The simplest explanation for Mr. Hoover's measurements is that he's measuring microbes from Earth. They're contamination."

Update for 4:45 p.m. ET: In a comment appended to Keith Cowing's posting about the study on NASA Watch, Rocco Mancinelli of the Bay Area Environmental Research Institute takes issue with the NASA statement that "the peer review process was not completed" when a paper by Hoover was submitted for publication in the International Journal of Astrobiology in 2007. "The paper was rejected, after peer review," said Mancinelli, who is listed as an associate editor of that journal. (Mancinelli also sent in critical comments that were included in my previous roundup on the "meteorite life" study.)

Update for 9:25 p.m. ET: There's been a lot of back and forth over whether Hoover has claimed to have a Ph.D. NASA Watch's Keith Cowing has put a lot of effort into this — and determined from NASA that he doesn't have a Ph.D., even though the Journal of Cosmology paper lists him as having one. Jennifer Lewter, a teacher who says she's a "big fan of Dr. Hoover's," indicates in her blog postings that he has two honorary doctorates.

Meanwhile, the journal's managing editor, Lana Tao, said in an e-mail that 21 commentaries on Hoover's paper had been received and that all were published, even though two (Nos. 11 and 15) still seemed to be missing at the end of the day. One of the late entries, from Oxford's Martin Brasier (No. 9) cast doubts on Hoover's results. "These samples have been sitting around in laboratories for between 205 and 73 years," he wrote. "It is well known that microbial contaminants can penetrate deep into such rocks, even during storage. The null hypothesis, therefore, is that many of these objects ... may be prokaryotic contaminants." (Cyanobacteria qualify as prokaryotic organisms.)

Tao also fired back once more at the journal's critics, insisting that Hoover's paper went through adequate peer review. Here's a quote from the e-mail:

"As every editor and guest editor will attest, all articles are subjected to peer review. We reject over 30 percent of invited papers and over 70 percent of those which are not invited. Every editor, and guest editor, has had their work subjected to peer review, and every editor has been required to revise their articles after peer review. Even the executive editors have been required to revise their papers after peer review.  We believe in peer review.

"Peer review provides wonderful feedback which can help make a paper better, or which can explain why the paper is hopeless and must be rejected. However, we do not reject great papers because we disagree with them as is the habit of other periodicals.

"Dr. Hoover's paper was received in November. It was subjected to repeated reviews and underwent one significant revision.

"We have published every commentary received, 21 so far. The vast majority support Dr. Hoover's findings.

"The choice is simple: Scientific discourse vs psychosis. Hysteria and lies do not constitute scientific doubt. They are calls for medication."

Update for 7 p.m. ET March 8: Now for the postmortems: Two more e-mails went out from Tao overnight. One was addressed to Paul Hertz, the NASA scientist who implied that the agency could not "stand behind or support" Hoover's claims because they had not been sufficiently peer-reviewed. In the message, which was copied to numerous others including yours truly, Tao said "we will file a formal complaint with NASA regarding your unprofessional, dishonest conduct." She said "over 30 NASA scientists have published with the Journal of Cosmology" and insisted that the articles "underwent rigorous peer review."

In another e-mail message, Tao thanked members of the media "for covering this important story and bringing attention to Richard Hoover's discoveries." She said the journal's owners accepted a buyout offer two weeks ago, before last weekend's flap. "The selling of JOC also means a new managing editor," she wrote. "Therefore with this thank you, I also get to say ... goodbye!"

Today, Columbia Journalism Review's Curtis Brainard recapped the whole saga of the microbes in the meteorite ... and the media ... in a posting to The Observatory blog.  "Anything having to do with extraterrestrials has a way of creating a media frenzy," Brainard observed. "But reporters have obviously learned from frenzies past."

I'm definitely feeling frenzied out, but Tao's earlier reference to Gil Levin's claims about the Viking experiments has reminded me to add that issue to the list of controversial astrobiology results:


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Discuss this post

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Maybe the article could INFORM and EDUCATE us about the research and the scientific assessment of the methods instead of just assuming that the research is valid and reporting on the flurry of belief-based responses, none of which seem to know anything about what the research is actually about?

  • 1 vote
Reply#30 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 9:43 AM EST

    Reply#31 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 9:50 AM EST

    Now we know what happened to Scotty when he was being beamed up in the last episode of Star Wars! WOW!

    • 1 vote
    Reply#32 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 9:52 AM EST

    Except that Scotty had Nothing to do with Star Wars...That would be Star Trek I believe you are referring to. lol though.

      #32.1 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 1:52 PM EST
      Reply

      Sorry, the above should have read, "...these fossils...." Also, Courtney, note that the study by Dr. Hoover focused primarily upon CI1 chondrites that were witnessed to have fallen and that were collected immediately -- not really enough time for fossils to form in them here on Earth. Keep in mind that scientific researchers think about these things on occasion.... You should all go read the actual paper. It is available for free. Then maybe we won't have so many crazy-ass statements being made in these forums. And if you're going to cite something in a long, crazy research-style post, cite actual research, not crappy books that fail to quote primary sources themselves.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#33 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 9:53 AM EST

      (wadejs) GOD created all life then over time it forms into other things. Do you really want to take the chance of not beliving in GOD? Life after death in Hell for eternity is a loooooonnnng time. Think about that! Amen!

      • 1 vote
      Reply#34 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 9:53 AM EST

      You do understand that Pascal's Wager is a logical fallicy right?

      • 1 vote
      #34.1 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:36 AM EST

      ya god is such a loving god that you have to believe in him w/o proof or burn in hell...woohoo!

        #34.2 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 11:15 AM EST

        Effing fear monger...I bought into that when I was six but then my brain grew. Let's all just believe in nonsense in case nonsense turns out to be true. You silly little man you.

        • 1 vote
        #34.3 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 11:30 AM EST

        God told me that Hell thing is just to scare people into behaving. In the end ALL God's creatures are going to Heaven.

        • 2 votes
        #34.4 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 12:46 PM EST
        Reply

        I am sure that Jay Arr is very sorry for offending you Mr. Stanko Bubalo Copernicus. He didn't know that family members would be reading.

          Reply#35 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 9:55 AM EST

          Is it or is it not?  to much Bull**** with all of you long comments!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • 1 vote
          Reply#36 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:03 AM EST

          What's wrong with long comments?

            #36.1 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 3:25 PM EST

            Long comment hard on short attention span.

            >I say "Ni"!<

              #36.2 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 4:11 PM EST
              Reply

              Okay, Let's SEE now. We have found micro-organisms in materials not of this earth. So, there is life out there. Does this need to be debated? Geesh!

              • 4 votes
              Reply#37 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:15 AM EST

              Can anyone tell me why this little microscopic whatever is called "life" and a 6 month old fetus is not? Or does it have more to do with ones conscience? Perhaps. Or committment?

              • 1 vote
              Reply#38 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:25 AM EST

              I'm a biologist that believes in evolution, not creation but your comment moved me deeply. That is a good question, at 8 weeks a fetus is able to feel pain through a partially developed nervous system. In common sense that fetus is life even before the 8 weeks since the criteria for life are, heretibility, replication, catalysis, and energy utilization. So in short, it is very possible the microorganism that was found in the meteor was a life form when it was alive. The debate over abortion is one that is relevant to the time and society that we live in.

                #38.1 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 2:19 PM EST

                That is a debate far beyond this board. Taken to extreme, you would then have to say all forms of contraceptives kill life as well. You go down a slippery slope with that argument. To me 6 months is late term and most reasonable people believe that only in the dire threat of the Mother's wife should alternatives be discussed or acted on. Your comparison is without real merit when you compare apples and oranges. You kill life everyday by taking a shower and scraping off skin cells. Your comparison is hardly appropriate.

                  #38.2 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 3:52 PM EST

                  What I find funny is that I had another tab open with the forum debating abortion and the recent GOP funding measures. I got tired of the BS and rhetoric so I closed it and came over here only to find the same thing being discussed. At least there's more civility here about that topic but it's still off topic from the meteorite in question.

                    #38.3 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 6:47 PM EST
                    Reply

                    Interesting.

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#39 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:28 AM EST

                    Look out everybody , microbial coiled filaments are attacking the earth !

                      Reply#40 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:29 AM EST

                      Might come true if they ever finish drilling that hole to Lake Vostok in Antarctica. Who knows WHAT microbes, bacteria or some type of virus may surface and kill us all, be aware, be VERY aware.

                        #40.1 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 12:24 PM EST
                        Reply

                        Get ready to have a major upset over creation ideas, it's been a long time over due!

                          Reply#41 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:32 AM EST

                          Okay, I'll bite, what do spiral microbes from space have to with creationism??????? If you believe in God, he could very easily create life wherever he wanted to. And if you don't the point is moot.

                            #41.1 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 12:26 PM EST
                            Reply

                            Take a very good look in Genesis and take it for what it is and you'll find out when the universe was created. Listen to others and get a million different answers. It's in front of your nose. From the creator. Period.

                              Reply#42 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:34 AM EST

                              No scientist will recognize another's claim on this for two reasons: they are told not to, and they would want the prestige themselves, anyway. We will learn about life from beyond Earth well after it is too late, if it is not already.

                                Reply#43 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:37 AM EST

                                Riiiight. Please try your post again.

                                  #43.1 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 12:23 PM EST

                                  Ekke Ekke Ekke Ekke Ptang Zoo Boing Zow Zing!

                                    #43.2 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 3:28 PM EST

                                    mob_barley, I could not have said any better meself.

                                    >I say "Ni"!<

                                      #43.3 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 4:13 PM EST

                                      Gort, Klattu Barrota Nikto.

                                        #43.4 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 5:30 PM EST
                                        Reply

                                        These must be the superior UFOs flying around out there .These microbes are smarter than a fifth grader .

                                          Reply#44 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:38 AM EST

                                          Buddha said 2500 years ago that there are innumerable planets and life forms out there. This comes from someone who is completely enlightened. After 49 days of meditation, Buddha sees not just his past lives but all previous lives of all human beings and the cause and effects of the cosmos. Out of deepest compassion, Buddha had seen what causes death and sufferings and has taught us ways to end it. His teachings are still unchanged until today, so experience it yourself in meditation and see the truth.

                                            Reply#45 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:40 AM EST

                                            Amen Donovan.

                                              #45.1 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 12:28 PM EST
                                              Reply

                                              Well, the same God that made the Earth made the Heavens....so whats the big surprise here folks?

                                              You didn't expect that this was all by chance, did you? Let alone, we can not afford to be wrong.

                                                Reply#46 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:41 AM EST

                                                ChrisTheFish

                                                Why is it that we cannot afford to be wrong? I just do not get it.

                                                Almost every religion has killed in the name of their "God" but I guess that is OK. If God is so merciful and forgiving and gave use the intellect to question, surely he would understand that different belief systems would evolve.

                                                I suppose isolated tribes that have never been exposed to a externally "power" driven religions somehow will be condemned if they still believe in some kind of Idol worship.

                                                A "God" who is all powerful would have more intellect than all of mankind combined and would understand irrational thoughts and actions of those he created. Most religions try to undermine most science because it questions the core of their Religion and reduces their power.

                                                Why are we so arrogant to believe we are the only ones. Please tell me that if God exists (and I am NOT an atheist) why did he create the trillions of galaxies? What would be the point? Just for fun I suppose.

                                                Questioning scientific findings is totally appropriate but the cart blanch dismissive attitudes I see coming from the religious self righteous is ludicrous.

                                                I was raised Catholic, but after being fed so many lies (it was conveniently a sin to eat meat on Fridays to help the fisherman...oops no linger a sin...I feel for all those poor souls that went astray prior to it magically no longer becoming a sin) I find it and most organized religions being nothing much more than power exerting control over people. To be fair they can help society and a sense of belonging. Until the zealots start appearing and claim their path is the ONLY way to eternal salvation.

                                                  #46.1 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 2:17 PM EST
                                                  Reply

                                                  If this microorganism was found in a meteorite it tells me that therewas life at one time, but I think if there is a meteorite where ever it came from was most likely blown to pieces thus the planet that held it is gone. I think most people of a logical mind would say there is life else where in the universe, but it would be really rare to find life like we have here on earth just to have a planet that could sustain life and then add all the things the planet can do to eliminate life volcanoes, meteorite collisions, solar flares and a really bad scenario coming in contact with a neutron star. never the less it does prove there was life even if it may have been a billion years away from producing animals.

                                                    Reply#47 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:42 AM EST

                                                    Check the Bristle Pine Cone tree or the Methusla for answers to discoveries in regards to life off of the earth and I guarenttee scientists will find the reason for such discovries.

                                                      Reply#48 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:42 AM EST

                                                      Ah the book of Genisis, so full of incosistancies, contradictions, and moral bancrupcy. Those who chose to quote it have probably never read it for comprehension. That's the problem with most christians, they choose to cherry pick the parts they like, but seem to forget about the rest. It's a myth, a fairy tale, and not a very good one at that. Get over it.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      Reply#49 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:46 AM EST

                                                      agreed.

                                                      "I refued to join any religion that made me leave my brain at the door"

                                                      -Albert Einstein

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #49.1 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:56 AM EST

                                                      Ah JustCallMeAl-2603069, so full of incosistancies, contradictions, and moral bancrupcy. I have chosen to quote JustCallMeAl-2603069 because his lack of comprehension speaks for itself. That's the problem with most JustCallMeAl-2603069's, they choose to cherry pick the parts they like, but seem to forget about the rest. Athiesm; It's a myth, a fairy tale, and not a very good one at that. Get over it.

                                                        #49.2 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:58 AM EST

                                                        Achem's Razor.

                                                          #49.3 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 12:29 PM EST

                                                          In 1929, Einstein told Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein "I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a god who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind." Spinoza believed God exists only philosophically and that God was abstract and impersonal.

                                                          In a letter written in 1950 Einstein stated that "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."

                                                          Einstein also stated: "I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."

                                                          (source: Wikipedia)

                                                          I wish more people who do not believe in God would take on an attitude of humility. The same goes for people who do believe in God. A little humility goes a long way. But that's just my two cents. Dubluv401 mentioned Einstein so I thought a better representation of his beliefs was needed here.

                                                          • 3 votes
                                                          #49.4 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 3:41 PM EST

                                                          I'm WITH you Mob. Even in the Christian bible believers are told to be ready to give an answer to someone who asks you about the faith and hope in your heart with meekness and humility. Kind of shoots down all those bible thumpers and fire and brimstone people.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #49.5 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 5:35 PM EST
                                                          Reply

                                                           

                                                           I am not a religious person in the least bit. I can certainally say that there is life out there other than us. There's just to much "space" out there for us to be alone (pun intended). I just can't understand how people can believe one person made earth, and living being's. First off the "Bible" was created by MAN!! alot of things can change or misinterpeted in 2,000 year's. The bible was created by man...a person's memory is the least reliable source of event's from the past. A memory can change the way a room look's or the color of something or how events even happened, it is not reliable at all. I believe in evolution and not that one person created earth and human's in 7 day's.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          Reply#50 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:47 AM EST

                                                          dubluv, don't forget to think outside of the box, Who says the days they are talking about are 24 hours long? we as humans can clone another human we can send a probe to mars and land it then receive the pictures. Don't under estimate the power of the brain and what it is capable of. If you can dream it then it can be made.

                                                            #50.1 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 11:02 AM EST

                                                            Yeah I agree. But I mean how can someone justify something that happened over 2k year's ago. Who's to say that GOD isn't an "alien" that came to the planet and we recognized him as a GOD back then.

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #50.2 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 11:08 AM EST

                                                            That could be, again, if you can think it then it becomes possible. Here is something that I believe that helps me think there is a GOD and that the bible holds some truth. If the holy spirit impregnated virgin Mary and Jesus was born would it be possible that Virgin Mary was impregnated artificially with the sperm of GOD? thus intercourse was not needed. GOD would then become Jesus father and with a high IQ to match he would be capable of manipulating people for the good of people. He would also be capable of planning his after life so that people would never forget him( with a little help from Mary Magdalene of coarse) anyways just trying to stur your imagination and this does not mean its true just how I put science to make it true to me

                                                              #50.3 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 11:30 AM EST

                                                              John-1890398, we shouldn't have to think outside the box, if whichever man wrote genesis said days, and he was expecting us to be his audience, then he should have known that to us days are 24 hours long. Would you be content if i borrowed american currency but paid you back in pesos? A peso is about 10% of a dollar. If we read in between the lines we can come up with many more fairy tales, just like the reason that arab women cover themselves from head to toe, no where does it say that in their holy book, its just says they must dress modestly... not be ninjas.

                                                                #50.4 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 1:30 PM EST
                                                                Reply

                                                                When will people ever learn that there has never been or will be life on other planets.. one of the oldest, and def the best book in the world shows evidence of this.. People just will never accept it because it comes from the Bible,, so sad:(

                                                                  Reply#51 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:48 AM EST

                                                                  Stanko

                                                                  Where did all the matter in the big bang come from? I want real proof not just speculation and theory.

                                                                  Is it not possible this was the creation of the heavens and earth? The two don't have to be completely opposites.

                                                                    Reply#52 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:48 AM EST

                                                                     Are some people so clueless and full of themselves to think that out of all the stars in the universe we happen to be the ONLY planet with life on it? do you know the odds of that? LOL

                                                                    get out of the hole you come from and and open your eyes. 

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    Reply#53 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:50 AM EST

                                                                    Wait so now assumptions are the new evolutionary trick? I thought all science did was offer concrete proof and it is very easy to show that proof to prove something.

                                                                    @alberto28: I am sure you can prove it, or do you just have faith that what you assume could be one day true? How is that different than religion?

                                                                      #53.1 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:56 AM EST
                                                                      Reply

                                                                      I love how scientists and evolutionists sit here and claim such glory to their opinion.

                                                                      1. Fact scientists have yet to come up with an explanation and cure for HIV (Aids). Like Dave chapelle said after all these years of research the best they came up with is "screwing a monkey" caused Aids.

                                                                      2. My doctor who is the best in my neighborhood according to all other doctors does not know the difference between klebsiella rhino-scleromatis and klebsiella ozenae thinking they are both the same.

                                                                      3. Scientists and doctors can't tell what is clearly in my body but they tend to know what is in an meteor.

                                                                      My opinion (which is only an opinion) is even though the meteor was opened in a very sterile environment, chances are when it hit the earth there was no sterile environment. The impact of the meteor could also possibly cause the microorganism from the earth to be embedded within it.

                                                                      I guess when religion says believe something you don't actually understand then it is called faith, but science calls it research. LMAO

                                                                        Reply#54 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:53 AM EST

                                                                        Hey Bobby I hate to say this but you fall into a category of science at your leisure. You don't want to believe this, but yet you are on a computer that without science would not exist. You probably talk on a phone but without science you would be using a homing pigeon to send a message if a hawk didn't kill your messenger. Some stuff people should not read nor listen to because it is just to much to absorb.

                                                                        • 2 votes
                                                                        #54.1 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 11:12 AM EST

                                                                        1. Fact scientists have yet to come up with an explanation and cure for HIV (Aids). Like Dave chapelle said after all these years of research the best they came up with is "screwing a monkey" caused Aids.

                                                                        There are other thories as to the origin of HIV, for example the process of preparing bushmeat could facilitated the transition from ape to man-ape. The reason we haven't cured HIV AIDS is because the virus is ever changing and we are constantly playing catch up.

                                                                        2. My doctor who is the best in my neighborhood according to all other doctors does not know the difference between klebsiella rhino-scleromatis and klebsiella ozenae thinking they are both the same.

                                                                        Just because someone is a doctor does not mean they are all-knowing. They are some of the brightest among us but a doctor will study his old and new medical books to make a correct assessment. In whas setting did you ask your neighborhood doctor your question, in his office or a at a bbq?

                                                                        3. Scientists and doctors can't tell what is clearly in my body but they tend to know what is in an meteor.

                                                                        Well of course they can tell what is inside a meteor, they opened it up and saw what was inside. If we opened you up then we could get a better understanding of what is inside you.

                                                                        You seem really bitter for some reason.

                                                                          #54.2 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 1:22 PM EST

                                                                          You seem really bitter for some reason.

                                                                          Shall we open him up to find out why? ;-P

                                                                          >I say "Ni"!<

                                                                            #54.3 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 1:42 PM EST

                                                                            i'm down, i'll bust out my college dissection kit

                                                                              #54.4 - Mon Mar 7, 2011 2:59 PM EST
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