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Harry Cabluck / AP
Member Ken Mercer, from San Antonio, reads amendments during a meeting of the State Board of Education Thursday, March 26, 2009, in Austin, Texas.
Everything is bigger in Texas, the saying goes, which is why advocates for science education are concerned about proposed supplemental, web-based instructional materials for biology courses that appear to promote creationist arguments.
"This gets a foot in the door," Joshua Rosenau, the programs and policy director of the National Center for Science Education, told me today. "In general, Texas is a concern with textbook issues because they buy so many textbooks. A publisher who was planning on being able to sell in Texas and then can't is in real trouble."
That means textbook publishers target the Texas market. Cash-strapped school boards across the country looking to replace their materials, in turn, are likely to be stuck buying whatever was created for the Texans.
Texas science standards
Two years ago, the Texas State Board of Education voted 13-2 to put in place a plan that would require teachers to encourage students to scrutinize "all sides" of scientific theories, including the theory of evolution.
Critics of the plan argued that it would allow non-scientific ideas such as creationism and intelligent design to slip into Texas classrooms even though the board president at the time, Don McLeroy, had previously said, "Anything taught in science has to have consensus in the science community and intelligent design does not."
Now, proposed science education materials — all web based — are available for review on the board's website. The National Center for Science Education and the Texas Freedom Network, organizations that criticized the new plan, reviewed the materials and found their fears confirmed.
Intelligent design teachings
The review shows that materials from an obscure New Mexico-based company called International Databases LLC promote anti-evolution arguments made by proponents of intelligent design and creationism. These are the same arguments that many scientists have shown lack scientific merit.
Among the highlights from the review made available by NCSE and TFN include:
- A slide on the origin of life states that "since such materialistic, self organization scenarios now have a history of scientific insufficiency for explaining the Origin of Life on Earth, the Null hypothesis (default) stands. This allows for the testing of the legitimate scientific hypothesis … Life on Earth is the result of intelligent causes."
- A teacher resources slide that says that "at the end of the instructional unit on the Origin of Life, students should go home with the understanding that a new paradigm of explaining life's origins is emerging from the failed attempts of naturalistic scenarios. The new way of thinking is predicated upon the hypothesis that intelligent input is necessary for life's origins."
- A module on the scientific method that lays out two "unproven hypothesis" that scientists have used to build their theories on the origin of life. One is called "scientific materialism, naturalism, and so forth." The other is that "an intelligence is necessary to explain both the origin, and diversification of life on Earth."
The NCSE and TFN point out that a federal judge in Pennsylvania ruled in 2005 that teaching intelligent design in public schools is unconstitutional, regarding it as creationism in disguise. Should the Texas school board approve the materials reviewed here, the critics hint at "expensive legal challenges."
What's next?
Teams of reviewers appointed by the Texas Education Agency will examine all of the proposed instructional materials in June and report to the TEA and State Board of Education. A public hearing and final vote on the materials is scheduled for July. Public schools could then purchase the materials for use in classrooms beginning in the 2011-2012 school year.
Rosenau, the NCSE programs and policy director, is optimistic the board won't approve International Databases Inc. materials on technical grounds. "Not even getting to the issue that it is creationist, it doesn't cover all the new standards as it is supposed to, it has typos, it has basic errors of fact," he told me. "It is hard to imagine it going anywhere."
Should it be approved, however, the company would go from an unknown entity to suddenly having access to the coveted Texas market, validating them as a player in the emerging e-textbook market. It would also open the door to allowing the material in a hardcopy textbook, Rosenau added.
"I'm sure the board could say, 'Look, we've already got an approved supplement that takes this perspective, so how can you say it would be irresponsible now to put that in your textbooks?' "
More stories on science education and intelligent design:
- Textbook changed 'creation' to intelligent design'
- 'Intelligent design' in Tenn. schools?
- 13 percent of biology teachers back creationism
- Evolution texts survive in Louisiana
John Roach is a contributing writer for msnbc.com. Connect with the Cosmic Log community by hitting the "like" button on the Cosmic Log Facebook page or following msnbc.com's science editor, Alan Boyle, on Twitter (@b0yle).
Leave a Comment:
Perfect example of why the United States is becoming less educated relative to foreign countries. BEFORE we even start teaching evolution by natural selection we must first teach logic and critical thinking to American students. What a pathetic predicament !
Sounds like this may be less about philosophy, and more about someone scoring a big cash deal...
I would imagine some of these board members that get to vote on this, don't make a huge salary, and might be easily bribed, in order for deal to go through...
Sigh, being a Texan is shameful to me, when we have idiot theocrats in our legislature and governorship. As much as I can't stand the illegals, it'd be nice if some of their legal brethren would get out and vote these clowns out of office. Everything from the railroad commission to the criminal justice and education systems need their old school cronies evicted, and allow for some more modern and more appropriate policies and procedures. We're so backwoods, it's scary. Guns, pickups, and Texan patriotism (not American patriotism).
Indeed, it is shameful that textbook publishers decide what goes in their textbooks based on what will sell in Texas. The only thing textbooks should contain are facts, pure and simple.
I really don't know why this even surprises people anymore.
They've already censored Jefferson from the history class .... why not censor science from the science class?
People simply don't realize that there is a fairly large battle brewing over the realities of the science and the realities of what people perceive (or worse yet .... want to perceive as reality).
But, I don't blame the creationists. I don't blame the fundamentalist christian who is simply following what they know ... what they've learned and what is familiar.
The problem isn't them ... the problem is us. The problem is the scientifically literate amongst us that have let this charade go on for so long. How many more times must we hear that there is no conflict between science and religion? How many times have you heard a non-believer go to bat for the creationist "point of view" as if it somehow warrants equal time within a scientific discourse.
Who else can say with a straight face that they don't feel absolute disgust that in the 21st century ... not only would a headline like this be plausible, but it would in fact be necessary within a contemplative society that has lost all touch with our ambition and all that is righteous within our explorative nature.
Our corruption shines bright, and our science-illiterate population have not only taken control of the intelligentsia, but they have dumbed-down our species to a point (I'm afraid) from which there is no return.
The light of our sciences will be extinguished by the penance of our priests and the sickly corruption of our politicians. And for what? So we can all line our pockets with the notions of green fibers harboring the very dead promises we've all failed to obtain.
Chad, there is always a point of return, it is a matter of if those of us who disagree with what Texas is doing can muster the power to effect the changes necessary to our educational system to prevent continued dumbing down. Remember, so long as one person has the knowledge of something, the capacity to educate others will always exsist.
This also highlights why there needs to be a national Department of Education, with more teeth, to enforce education standards nationwide, so that one single state does not have the capacity to dictate what is taught, and what is not. Science belongs in science class, theologically based theories on the origins of life have no place in a science class.
@V...as they said at the start of the article, everything is bigger in Texas, even the bribes
Everything is bigger in Texas including ignorance and superstition.
Please, please vote these board members out!
Actually, if they would teach critical thinking in school right after the ABC's, or along with, then I wouldn't mind if they taught intelligent design and creationism, as long as they also teach that there is a theory that the Earth is flat and the Sun goes around the Earth. Show them the proof of each of these, let them see that some theories are wrong, and they should see what is right (as long as they are not already too brainwashed.)
You would be surprised at what is argued here at the college level. Students deny that race issues still exist and they violently protest that REAL history did not occur if it does not agree with their glossed over perceptions (like the first Thanksgiving was actually to celebrate a massacre of native peoples)
They also don't like hearing the Texas revolution from the Mexican perspective, that Mexico was trying to prevent a rebellion and stop a secession, like the civil war. They don't like thinking of Texans as the "terrorists".
Priests dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight. –Thomas Jefferson
Intelligent design is creationism dressed up in a cheap tuxedo.
This makes me sick! The "null hypothesis" is NOT god! There is no room for god in any form in schools!
It's just another example of "god of the gaps" where whenever someone doesn't know something it must have been their god that did it.
Creationism is not science it is superstious nonsense.
These religious kooks are no better than the Taliban and their brand of superstition. Give me one iota of verifiable proof that god even exist. Can't do it can you? so what are all you god faring christians going to do burn me as a witch or stone me to death like the Taliban.
As long as there are tests in school, there will be prayer. At least by the unprepared. The prayers go something like this, "Oh GOD, please please GOD, help me pass this test and I promise I will study next time!" These are the same students that grow up and don't understand that science (natural science) means no gods, no angels, no ghosts, no miracles, nothing supernatural.
What about Catholic school?
FYI Tony -- other religious groups have schools, too, not just the Catholics. And my Catholic elementary school taught Evolution in science class. And Pope John Paul II himself said that "new knowledge has led to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis." Sure, there are exceptions, but as a general rule it is the hard-line, literal-Bible reading Protestants that have the biggest problem with evolution. Give the Catholics a break on this one, will you?
Sorry, wasn't picking on the Catholics, just trying to make a point that not all religion should be out of every school.
Trust me, I well know what the Baptists are capable of not learning.
If the creationists are so hell bent on teaching intelligent design, offer it as a philosophy elective.
Keep it out of the science classes!
Priests dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight. –Thomas Jefferson
After years of watching society decay before our eyes because of liberal brainwashing in our schools. Thank GOD someone wants to go back to teaching the truth. God bless Texas.
Go back?
When exactly was intelligent design taught in public schools?
Your religion may be YOUR "truth"...
but it's NOT mine, and you have no right to push it on my kid.
Teach it in your home, and in your church...
but keep your BELIEFS (not to be confused with truths) out of the PUBLIC schools.
Can you cite some examples of that brainwashing you mentioned...?
I doubt that you can...
The "brainwashing" is teaching anything that was scientifically proven that they didn't hear about in church, obviously. Didn't you hear about that in church?
"Intelligent causes" IS brainwashing. You are not saying what the cause was, you are simply saying it's intelligent. It would actually be more clear if they just came out and said God did it. But they don't, it's "intelligent causes"... and it's plural, so it's clearly not a monotheistic design.
What liberal stuff? Its proven fact. Oh wait, I forgot anything that the bible says is correct isnt it....
If myth and superstition is required to be taught as a serious subject in a science class, facts and science should be required to be taught in a house of superstition. By the way, religion has never been taught in schools, before the insanity took hold church was for personal belief systems and schools were for education. I have a hard time grasping this lunatic number of religious in the 21st century, I remember the funeral "god is dead" and the sense of relief and joy.
Steve, ID makes not comment about God or gods, just a designer. So the question is; who designed the designer?
Hey Sanity Steve
Creationism is not science it is superstitious nonsense.
Give me one bit of proof that there even is a Supreme being one piece of scientifically verifiable evidence--Just one. You can't do it.
The finite mind can not understand the infinite so we create Gods like Zeus and Thor and Venus and Jesus and Mohamed and all the 100's more that the human race has had to put up with because we don't and can't understand it. That does not mean their is a supreme being who created it all It just means YOU Steve can't understand it.
Why stop at evolution? Just roll back the clock and teach that the earth is flat and the center of the universe. Just ignore all science.
I agree with Dale3242. Instead of treating mental illness lets burn people at the stake for witchcraft. Instead of Doppler lets sacrifices cows and do rain dances. Instead of NASA lets do astrology. Instead of focusing on nano fibers and medicines we can try turning lead into gold! Instead of bettering our world for our children lets run this whole damn planet into the ground waiting for jebus!
Intelligent Design or Creationism is fine as a person's indvidual beliefs or perhaps even as discussion in a high school philosophy class but it simply doesn't pass the test of true science. Science requires repeatable experiments and observable data that can be done by anyone and get the same results. As of this time there is no scientific experiment or observation that can discern the actions of an intelligent designer or diety in action.
I can disprove Intelligent Design. Just look at the person sitting next to you. If it's not a supermodel, you've got your proof there's no intelligence involved. If it is a supermodel, squeeze the honkers. If they're not real, you've got proof. If they are real, strike up a conversation.
Can we get a separation of church and schools now? This is crazy.
Being that the public school system is a function of government (the state)....
There arlready IS a spearation there... or is supposed to be anyway...
But when decisions like this are made on the whims of a board of middle aged folks... Who are no doubt religious themselves... and want to get re-elected to that board... by more religious folks.... logic, reason, and loyalty to the law, goes out the window...
And the main driver of all this is hidden under a thin veil to get kids to "scrutinize" all aspects of the issues. What BS. It's pushing theology in public schools AND it's textbook publishers publishing whatever will sell. Disgusting.
V... I agree. Many schools use Site Based Management nowadays. Often a parent or other person who has no scientific or mathematical knowledge sits on these panels. While I like the idea of community involvement there have been times I have heard teachers talking about how difficult it is to bring some of these people into a rational discussion of curriculum.
fuggedaboutit. Ain't gonna happen. They are the polar antithesis of "rational".
That statement is INCREDIBLY non-specific. First of all, what the hell does that mean? "Intelligent causes" could be anything. I am fairly sure they are trying to refer to God but it could be aliens and time-traveling humans in a self-creation paradox. Does anyone identify the definition of "intelligent causes"?
mob, it means "according to the bible" to these religious fanatics. they're afraid if they don't profess to believe every word in the bible that a big ugly red man with a pointed tail will take them beneath the ground and poke them with a pitchfork forever. and then they try to tell you that Darwin was wrong!!!!
I know that is what they are going for, but in their attempts to take certain words out of creationism to dude it up into "intelligent design" they have made it completely non-specific and therefore ablative of their point.
I suppose it shouldn't surprise me, but the point is "intelligent design" basically just sounds scientific as opposed to being scientific.
There should be no federal support whatsoever to any school that attempts to replace education in biological sciences with bible stories or creationism or so-called intelligent design. Religion belongs in church, not in school, except in courses that compare the the belief systems of the various religions.
I agree, but they apparently are teaching this along side evolution. But it's clearly driven by a need to sell textbooks to the religious folks, it's all about the moneys.
Don't worry, Texas is cutting the budget, especially to education, so we may not be buying any textbooks in the future.
I want them to teach Intelligent Design of other cultures, but I don't think that is there intent.
If I believed in god, I'd beg him to save us from this insanity.
Agreed.
I'm glad I took a Philosophy of Religion class my one year in college. Critically thinking about religion in a logical manner easily shows how shallow it's claims really are. I even passed with a B+ and my professor was a rabid christian.
About three weeks ago I was at Walmart in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. When I came out there was a flyer on my windshield that asked me to support the Republican governor's efforts to abolish tenure for all K-12 and college/university teachers. The flyer assured me that once tenure was removed then school boards and boards of trustees could be replaced or pressured one-by-one to "quit teaching Godless communism to out children." Among the things that would be stopped would be teaching of other religions and cultures, evolution, that the Earth was millions of years old, and "Al Gore's global warming scan {sic}."
This really scary. Already the University of Alabama has one of the worst biology programs in the country because so much has been left out of Alabama public and religious schools that the incoming students are essentially functionally illiterate in biology and earth sciences. In order to just get students to the point that they can pass basic biology classes, UA is teaching "remedial science" and requiring classes in such areas as evolution and currently evolution theory, geology, global warming and even forbidden subjects such are the Krebb Cycle. Students, according to one professor that teaches a psychology course that includes genetics and evolution, are amazed to find out that the Earth is billions of years old, or that global warming is a long-accepted scientific theory, or that evolution does not posit that man descended from apes.
Why, in God's name, would any bright teenager ever want to be a teacher these days? Only to be demonized, called a union thug, have your pay cut at will, and told to teach lies and falsehoods? What sane person would expose themselves to the Luddite right wing for any amount of money?
Dear God (pardon the phrase), that flyer is one of the scariest things I've ever read. How can people hate knowledge so much?
People fear change....
And in the 21st century, things are changing faster than ever...
Notice how the right-wing pundits have demonized the word "Progressive"...
They say Progressives are going to subvert the nation, or some such drivel...
Note the root of the word is "progress"...
Fear and ignorance go hand in hand...
Chris,
The mixture of science and religion butt heads. My state has a "Creationist Museum". People flock to this place like creatures followed the Pied Piper. It is definitely scary.
Evolution is a religeon that requires more faith than creation. But go ahead and believe everything you see on tv. Mutant geniuses
steve, what you think of as evolution is Darwin's theory of natural selection which is just one small facet of modern evolutionary biology. Darwin'sOrigin of species was published 150 years ago and I bet you've never read it. I bet you've never studied genetics or ecology or physiology or zoology or botany or any of the other disciplines that are the foundation of a modern understanding of evolutionary science. you're just some bible thumper doing your best to avoid being sent to hell.
here is a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection#Evolution_by_means_of_natural_selection
Yeah, yeah insults. That's all you're reduced to. Evolution is the most researched and reviewed theory ever. For over 150 years, it has been the focus of attacks and criticism. Yet, and despite, all the attempts to discredit Evolution, it still stands. Not because it is a religion, but because it's true.
Sanity Steve
If only you understood how great was your ignorance, you might lose some of that arrogance.
Insane Steve
I dare you to take just one into biology course and then one physical anthropology class related to the evolution of man. I'm sure your local community college offers these on weekends or evenings. For a mere two hours a week for three months I guarantee you will gain more truth than you have in church your entire life.
Modern science can show and prove many things when it comes to evolution. Creationists cannot nor will they ever be able to prove that there is a God. But that doesn't mean science can say that it's a 100% fact that we're all here by an accident. I for one believe in the complexities are too complex to be an accident. But just because science can show all the proof and evidence in the world on how things evolved doesn't disprove there is no God. To me its just showing how God did it or gave that power to life to do it ourselves. Obviously that is not proof in the scientific way of life that there is a God. Could it be possible that God ignited that one moment of creation and we took it from there? At the end of the day evolutionists nor creationists can prove either way that there is or isn't a God. We all just have to wait for that fateful day of our death. We definitely need to keep religion out of the science class. But I think its wrong to teach kids that evolution is the way it happened so that means there is no God. Keep athiest and creasionist views out of it just teach the facts.
I agree, teach only the facts and don't teach kids there is no God.
I agree with this also, but must ask: Life and the Universe are complex, and must have been created by some intelligence. However, what created that intelligence? In other words, if life is so complex to have needed creating, God must be infinitly more complex, so what created God? And what created what created God? Somewhere along the line, something came into existence out of nothing. If a complex system could not come into being on its own, then God could not come into being on his own.
The same can be said of those who think aliens seeded life on Earth. Those aliens came from somewhere, either they sparked up out of nothing or were seeded by other aliens who accidently came into being. Either way, life started somewhere. The Universe started somewhere. God started somewhere.
It's not that evolutionists are or are not trying to prove/disprove the existence of god or any other deity. They are simply saying that it doesn't require divine intervention for life to exist or begin. That's it, nothing more. If at some future time evidence appears to show the existence of god then so be it. But, at present the evidence is to the contrary.
I completely agree that school is where science (any and all), math, literature, etc. is taught. If you want the spiritual aspect of the discussion then go to church. Period.
I agree. The argument of god's existence does not belong in school. Only the facts to which they can build on a higher understanding towards biology etc.
Why do you people keep saying life is some accident? Where does that come from? That implies there was a correct alternative if evolution was the "accident". I don't think I know of any respected scientist that says we were accidents. They do say that through huge amounts of time and huge amounts of diversity on things like temp., resources, and such that the CHANCE of life (chance and accident are two different things.) coming about was likely. It's statistics not natures spilt milk. In all honesty nature don't really give a damn one way or another. However, I would like to see where you're getting "accident" from. I keep hearing it from religious people so I'm just curious.
@TonyInDallas
one theory states that in the absence of everything something must emerge for nothing to exist. in other words the universe began because there was nothing. (for nothing to exist there must be something)
i believe they tested this and got matter to propagate inside a absolute vacuum (something that dose not even exist in deep space.)
Another sad event for Texans. The State School Board is rife with religious zealots - well actually the entire State government is full of 'em...thanks Gov. Perry.
Keep your religion and religious beliefs out of our educational system. If folks want their kids to learn about that crap then let them send their kids to parochial schools where that kind of thing isn't regulated. I don't want my kids growing up thinking the creationism and intelligent design are based on science...they aren't.
I completely agree Ping! I grew up and went to school in Texas and thankfully it was well before any of this nonsense was around. School was for teaching math, science (any and all), literature, etc. Church was for everything else. If you wanted to learn about how one chemical combines with another to create a completely different compound, you went to school. If you wanted to learn how to treat your neighbor, brother, sister, etc. (how to be a good person) you went to church.
It's funny, most of the people that I knew that did drugs, stole, whored around (were not model citizens) all went to church. Those that were science nerds, had a few beers from time to time, generally good people and trying to make something of themselves didn't go to church. Am I missing something here?
What scares me is what my three year old nephew (actually all young kids today) is facing when they enter school. The hippocracy that awaits him and the thought of the things he'll miss due to the nature of some person(s) fear of the unknown or of an invisible guy in the sky is terrible! He is a very inquisitive and intelligent kid and when I'm asked a question about something I do my best to explain in easy to understand but scientific terms. And, it's amazing that he not only understands the explanation the majority of the time, but then tells his friends the correct answer when they ask!
Why can't this issue be as simple as that? Because some sorry ass can't leave well enough alone! Creationism, ID, whatever you want to call it it all boils down to a theological discussion/explanation, NOT a bona-fide scientific explanation!! Keep this crap the hell out of any public school in any state and teach the alternate view where it should be taught...in church/Sunday school!! Period!!!!!
Boy, Garrett, your first two paragraphs summed up my East Texas upbringing. Good education if you wanted it (if you didn't take all your classes with coaches) and major hypocrisies from the church crowd. We used to joke that there was a church on every corner and a liquor store across the street. (no much of a stretch.)
Insanity Steve; Your statement stems from ignorance. The evidence for Darwinian evolution through natural selection is overwhelming. No thinking person could logically refute that natural selection has occurred and is still occurring. To do so would be to ignore the incredibly long and detailed fossil record (perhaps by offering impossible alternatives), zoogegraphic and phytogeographic evidence, and modern agriculture and animal breeding. Anyone who attends a museum and looks at exhibits must realize that, as Thomas Hixley said in 1872, 'evolution is an established fact."
Do you think that some nonhuman "intelligence" developed the breeds of dogs or cows? Can you not see that groups of flowers are related and must have had a common ancestor? Did Burpee have a devine intelligence?
The sad thing is that the stupidity and ignorance that you display is also found on the Texas School boards and influences what goes into textbooks. And Fundamentalists legislators perpetuate the stupidity by laws decreeing what must be taught. If you can read and have an encyclopaedia, look up an article on evolution and read it with an open mind.
What Intelligent Designer would totally useless hip bones in the tail of whale or leg bones in the tail of a snake. Why do men have nipples?
PS There ARE people living in the US today who believe the sun and planets revolve around the earth.
PPS they used to lobotomize gay people to 'cure' them
Being educated does not make a person intelligent. Im truly sorry so many dont see the light. May God bless you all. PS thanks for your comments, I shall ponder them.
Why would you apologize for "so many" not "see[ing] the light"? Did you play some role in it? I appreciate the kind thanks at the end of your comment but the first sentence in your comment could easily be seen as a very broadly addressed insult.
Being educated shows at least an attempt at being intelligent. Seeing the light may just be an indication of being neither educated or intelligent?
Steve,
I agree that being educated does not make a person intelligent. Intelligent people test their belief systems. They do not blindly study or follow a single source, dogma or leader. You seem like a person who is very "educated" in the bible. I suggest that you broaden your horizons. I don't think you will be cast into Hell for reading Darwin's book. An excellent companion is a book called "The Reluctant Mr. Darwin." You also should look into geology, specifically the part about continental drift. A bit of astronomy might also help to open your mind.
Sanity Steve,
I, too, agree that being educated does not 'necessarily' make a person intelligent; however, the odds certainly improve the more one studies.
Even after studying mathematics, physics, geology and educational psychology I have doubts about many scientific findings . I keep studying, reading, listening to understand better.
Do I hold the scientific community in contempt at times? Yes I do sometimes, irrationally I might add. Am I frustrated and embarassed that my limited knowledge base does not always give the answers I long for? Yes, I am without a doubt.
To me, assigning everything that I don't understand to an unseen diety is not the answer; that would be taking the easy way out. That way I wouldn't have to use my brain at all. Religions seem to use fear as their control mechanism to retain power and wealth. Remember Jim Jones? Remember the gold bathroom fixtures at Jim & Tammy Faye Baker's community? Galileo's house arrest? Anything that threatens religions' power and wealth are demonized. Scientific study challenges religions.
Caroyln 3170946..........you put it so well. The wonder of science is it is not faith driven. When facts dispute a hypthesis a new one takes its place.
About the fear of knowledge.......it is ingrained in the Bible.......in the genesis fable Adam and Eve are condemn for eating the fruit of knowledge.
As to my own religious beliefs which i can not prove or disprove they have tended more and more toward a pantheism near to buddhist thought. I try to keep on science and history. My favor saying is Doubt everything.........me most of all.
Steve, in order to "see the light" one must first remove the blinders in order to see the world around them. Sorry, but religion is the blinder that keeps people from seeing, and most importantly, understanding the world around them. Science, on the other hand, takes the world apart in order to understand the mechanics behind it. IF science ultimately finds evidence for the existence of a 'creator' then great. BUT, until that time everything as of yet points to the contrary.
Also, not to be rude, but I do not need nor do I want your blessing. I was raised in a very loving and caring environment without religion and it has suited myself and my family just fine. PS, don't ponder our comments, try taking a few college courses and find out for yourself.
So I know science can show how all these wonderfull things in life happened but show me how that proves there is no God. All science does is point to how it happened not that it happened without God. I have a few friends who are scientists and religious, they say the same. All science does is shows us how it happened, that's it. Could it be possible that God ignited that one moment of creation and we took it from there? Neither evolutionists or creationists can prove or disprove there is or isn't a God. Just show the facts and let the kids decide for themselves what they want to believe in.
Sorry, I was thinking one thing and wrote another. What I meant to say is that science, currently, shows that a creator isn't required for life to start, change, or flourish. It can start and maintain itself all on its own. That's it. IF a creator did start everything, I guess we'll find out one day...maybe. Maybe I'm not making my point as clearly in words as it is in my head :P. However, I completely agree that kids should not be taught political, religious, or any other view points...only the facts.
True. Intelligence is an inherent trait, separate from the content of one's instructional upbringing. Intelligence is the ability to think, analyze and understand information. Plenty of intelligent people in the world lack access to a good education. This does not make them stupid, it merely makes them uninformed, an situation that teachers all over the world are attempting to remedy. Conversely, all the education in the world will not make an unintelligent person able to understand the information which is right in front of them.
If this pig flies, at least it would subject the issue to scrutiny and just what part could survive even an adolescents' questioning.
Two words... Jesus... Camp... Why do you think they prey on children? Sure they ask questions a lot, but they TRUST authoriety! You can LIE to them and get away with it. It is sick. Granted most of these creatarted people were once children growing up listening to all this bs. However, those standing at the head of this stupid notion. They know better. They know they are lieing to people. I know because everytime they open their filthy mouth to the ignorant masses and quote a scientific statement. A scientist has to turn around and readd words, delete words that were never said, and add a whole damn page or so to untwist the bs they spew. These people LOVE stupidness. They thrive in it. The worship and praise they get. The money. The more stupid people are the more powerful they become.
Failed attempts? In just the last to years, our understanding of the primal RNA world has advanced significantly. Scientists synthesized two sets of simple RNA pairs that have the ability to reproduce themselves -- the world's first synthetic evolving system. Now it's no longer a jump to go from Stanley Miller's primordial organic molecules to evolution. Faith is failing, not science.
There is no amount of evidence that will accepted by people determined to remain ignorant. Science presents reason and evidence every day, I have yet to see or hear of a single credible and rational piece of evidence in the existence of some omnipotent supernatural being. Ask those who cling to the concept and all they can say is "look at a flower, thats evidence". Ummmm, excuse me, thats evidence of evolution, not myth. There are those that need the idea of something monitoring their life and gives some hypothetical meaning, but to require it to enter a science room, a place of education? Insane.
Faith is what is required to explain the absence of fact.
Nothing that requires faith can be taught as science.
Anything that requires faith is not science, pure and simple. Facts can be found, your sky daddy can't.
 Amazing. The 21st century and superstition is still being considered as a subject in a science class? Is a monitored class on evolution going to be required in all churches? Does this mean that it will also be required to teach the earth is flat? How is scince classes going to handle the issue of the earth being the center of the universe? How will medical schools deal with teaching that disease is nothing more than a gods will? That earthquakes (remember boob quake?)and comets are punishment and omens? Just how far back will be primitive superstition be enough to appease the simple minded?
Thank you Agnomad74, I couldnt have said it better. Many people are paid very well to produce facts. Mankind sure has alot of faith in himself.
You see, this is what gets me... Here you are Sanity Steve, saying something SO general like "mankind sure has a lot of faith in himself". Yet it's people who don't believe in God that make up the clear minority. According to some, the percentage of people who "believe" or have faith or are religious ranges up around 90% to 95% of the people on this planet. Yet you are here pushing the religious side of this debate and you are lumping a good deal of the faithful into a group that has "a lot of faith in [themselves]" (and with a very clear negative connotation).
Many people are paid, sometimes very well sometimes not so well, to "produce facts". But in order for anyone else to regard it as a fact they are obliged to research that fact themselves. I don't need to read it in a book that gravity exists, but if I do read it and I read about the experiments that have been done I could, if I were so inclined, go out and produce the results that the facts have laid out. I can prove facts, you can prove facts. It would be more accurate to say that people reveal facts, as opposed to produce them, for facts exist even in our absence.
Sanity Steve
But real facts can be verified. That is how we progress. Denial is not progress. It is stagnation.
WTF!? go live in damn cave wiping your ass with leaves if you're so insulted about what mankind does for themselves. Your on a computer sending ignorant messages to thousands across the globe in seconds. Damn straight I support our species. Last I checked god couldn't defeat people in iron chariots and the only way to ward off evil was voodoo sheep blood on the door fram. Screw all that tribal dung smoking insight. We are capable of so much more than that. That includes moral perspectives as well.
*You're on a computer*
As a philosophical discipline, no problem. It is not science, because you cannot use the experimental process, and it stands no criticism.
It is so terribly sad for our nation that should the Scopes Monkey Trial be held again in much of this country (it essentially is every time such a thing happens) that the result would be the same. This is a pity for more than one reason. Even as is, the Christian Bible does not say that the theory of evolution is false any more than it says that the Earth is 6,000 years old, or that there will be a 'rapture'. These are all superstitious interpretations that people have variously attached to the faith along the years, and being for whatever reason, fun for certain people to believe .... they cling to them. The claim by well organized mob that the entire Earth and all life came into being some few thousand years ago is not just false because any observant person knows better .... it is actually false because the Christian Bible (I use that term as the word bible alone simply means 'book') does not say these things. Some interpreters of the works (who were not regarded by more enlightened Christians in their day) have said these things and written books, and now an entire (profitable) industry has blossomed in the indoctrination of these alternate beliefs. These people have been and continue to be just plain wrong. I fear that there is less and less difference between these types and the Taliban other than the language and name by which they address their deity. Otherwise, they appear more and more alike.
The fabrication of facts is extremely profitable.
The Catholic Church is extremely wealthy.
Fabrication of facts is an oxymoron. It is either a fact and therefore testable and verifiable, or it isn't.
Steve
there is often financial gain in generating data if it supports a cause backed by wealth. However, in time, the science roots out these fallacies. The scientific thought at any one time is never entirely correct, but over time it gets more accurate regarding old questions, and generates new questions to be wrong over. The cycle continues. That is the greatness of science... it's dynamic and evolving. Religions are static, and fallacies are reinforced rather than rejected.
And, the spread of ignorance seems to be on the rise.
Why is it bad to allow freedom of religion in the classroom? How does someone denying evolution keep them from being a surgeon, chemist, etc. I don't hear Christians or Muslims saying that water is formed when angels cry. They know it comes from hydrogen and oxygen. When I was taking RN classes in 2000, there wasn't any content that was anti-religious or anti-evolution. It simply wasn't concerned with the debate. It was all a study of the current state of the body and treatments. My wife said that medical school for her was the same way. Being religious doesn't stop people from being doctors, engineers or any other kind of scientist except for maybe an evolutionary scientist.
So WTF is the big deal if some people want to practice their religious freedoms in the classroom? There will still be scientific breakthroughs and freedoms in our country if we let them bring this material in. And they'll never be allowed to ban evolutionary teachings...so WTF is the big deal? I'm worried that stopping religious freedoms in the classroom will lead to less freedoms outside the classroom. Where's the concern about freedoms on both sides of the debate? Almost everyone here sounds completely un-American / anti-freedoms.
Because I would like to exercise my right of freedom from religion as guarenteed in the Constitution of the United States. What children are exposed to as far as a personal belief system is the parents right to determine and has no place in a credible classroom.... that should be confined to buildings that have no purpose in education. To practise science requires facts, when school rooms are teaching myth and superstition ....... the two dont mix well.
NovelT
This isn't about "freedoms." It is about education. if we teach students that ID is good science, we are simply creating ignorant students. Everyone has freedom of religion, always, but that doesn't give them the right to teach our chidlren that black is white just because some religious text says so.
What we are discussing or what the article is referencing is allowing relgiion to inform science. Science is, by necessity, agnostic. No supernatural events allowed.
NovelT,
For a baker, car mechanic, house keeper, not to believe in science, including biological science, is no big deal. However, for an exterminator, farmer, or doctor not to know biological science is inexcusable. Insecticide resistant insects, failed crops due to disease, antibiotic resistant bacteria don't just happen. They are not caused by the wrath of a god. They are the result of ignorance of biological science, specifically evolution.
Any truly intelligent person knows that all knowledge comes from light. Any educated person knows what their instructor decided to teach them.
Knowledge comes from light? What the heck does that mean? Knowledge comes from rigorous testing of evidence and logic.
Intelligence is a capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity and a faculty for understanding.
Education is the process of receiving or giving systematic instruction.
Knowledge is acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles, as from study or investigation.
One can assume that by "comes from light" you are referring to accepting Jesus into your heart. And I would just assert that one does not gain knowledge of gravity or astrophysics or geography or chemistry of any other branch of science by accepting Jesus (or any other religion) into their heart. The only knowledge one could presumably gain by accepting Jesus into their heart is a knowledge of Jesus' love. And that my friends has nothing to do with science or intelligence.
Go shine a lasser in your eye for a good hour. Come back and tell us what you learned.