
Les Bossinas / NASA
An artist's conception shows a starship entering a wormhole to travel to a distant galaxy.
Last month's "100-Year Starship" conference, backed by NASA and the Pentagon's Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, threw a huge spotlight on the idea of sending spacecraft far beyond our solar system — but how realistic is that idea? Check out what one of the world's top experts on the subject has to say on "Virtually Speaking Science."
Marc Millis, the researcher behind NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project and the nonprofit Tau Zero Foundation, was my guest on tonight's show, which is available as a podcast via BlogTalkRadio and iTunes.
Millis estimates that it'll take 200 years to get in position for the first missions to stars beyond our own, but he says there are lots of small steps we can take starting tomorrow to "chip away" at the challenge. Experiments with solar sails have already started, and Millis says the next step there is to figure out the business case for more ambitious light-powered trips.
There are all sorts of potential breakthroughs to consider: Could the recent reports of faster-than-light neutrinos point to a way to break the speed limit set by special relativity? Could laser experiments let scientists warp the fabric of space-time on a small scale? "What creates the properties of an inertial frame, and how does that relate to space travel?" Millis asked.
Is it worth spending money on precursor missions — for example, sending a "Super-Hubble" space telescope beyond the edge of our solar system to look outward, and inward? "What would it take to do that? How much would it cost?" Millis said.
Here's an edited transcript of my pre-show Q&A with Millis:
Cosmic Log: More people are aware that interstellar flight is on the agenda, in part because of the 100-Year Starship conference. So is anyone building a starship anytime soon? What's the next step?
Millis: No one's building a starship anytime soon, although a lot of people would like to attempt that. The workshop had about 1,000 people there. It was open to the public, and I was glad to see some very intelligent questions from the public. It was an introductory look at not only the technology, but also some of the social issues, and how you would do financing.
The next step by DARPA is that there's a competition out to award the remaining funds of about $500,000 [out of an original $1 million] as seed money to whoever can suggest the best organizational structure to carry forward with the 100-Year Starship image. That will be an organization that will work for at least a century to develop the technology and financing to ultimately enable starships.
Q: Do you see Tau Zero as that organization?
A: Tau Zero is making a proposal. To gauge our chances, I would have to know what all the other competitors are proposing, and that's hard to do.
Q: Could it be that the social issues are actually more challenging than the technological issues?
A: Theoretically, it would be possible to send a probe to the nearest neighboring star in less than a century, so you could actually get your data back. But the required expense is beyond what I think our society could commit to right now.
Q: What's the ballpark figure for the cost?
A: There isn't one, because it's so beyond what we can do.
Based on the progression of society ... if we don't change anything that we're doing, it looks as if it might take another two centuries to have an interstellar probe that's fast enough to complete a mission within a human lifespan. Not that there's people on board, but that the people who launched the mission could get the data back before they retire. We have a long way to go.
The important issue to figure out today is to make sure we have a sane comparison of the real challenges and the real state of the art, so we're proceeding wisely here. Then, from that, ask, "OK, if that's where we are, what can we start tomorrow to chip away at those issues?" We can't build the starship tomorrow, but we can identify the correct questions to ask, and begin seeking answers to those questions. When it looks more promising, and the advancements are there, fine.
On the social issues ... when you think of leaving the planet, and representing Earth, that requires a high degree of political will and collaboration. I don't consider that impossible, and things are certainly looking up in terms of nations collaborating on major space topics. But I don't know how long it will take to really bring this collaboration to bear. Now this doesn't preclude any one sufficiently able and wealthy team from launching their own mission, on their own. Would that be ethical or not?
Then, suppose we did identify a habitable planet. Is it really ours to consider colonizing?
There are a lot of huge questions: What's the optimal population for an interstellar trip? What are the governance models? What's the meaning of life? When you start thinking about "world ships," where we're sending people instead of just robotic probes, that provides a venue that's far enough out that you can rationally discuss these questions. It's an interesting opportunity that we really haven't tapped into yet.
Q: I guess one of those big questions would be, "Why travel to other star systems?" How would you answer that one?
A: The ultimate, highest-priority benefit of star flight is the survival of the human species beyond the fate of our own solar system and our home planet. In the meantime, the progress we make to try to turn all this stuff into a reality will result in profound improvements in energy conversion, transportation, self-supporting life support — things that would be very useful for life on Earth. And then there's the social aspect. This effort can give us hope for a better future, expand our opportunities — and hopefully give people a frontier to conquer, rather than being left with no option other than to conquer each other.
More about interstellar flight:
- The best options for flying to other stars
- Billionaires wanted for starship plan
- Sex poses big challenge for interstellar travel
Podcasts from 'Virtually Speaking Science':
- Download tonight's hourlong show from BlogTalkRadio or iTunes
- Sean Carroll on the puzzling frontiers of physics
- Rand Simberg on the private-enterprise vision for spaceflight
- Martin Hoffert on the future of energy policy
- George Djorgovski on science in virtual worlds
- Alan Stern on suborbital research and NASA's mission to Pluto
- Col. 'Coyote' Smith on the outlook for space solar power
- Tim Pickens on rocket ventures and the Google Lunar X Prize
Last update: 10:30 p.m. ET Nov. 2.
Many thanks to the Meta Institute for Computational Astrophysics for co-sponsoring tonight's Second Life talk at the Stella Nova auditorium.
Connect with the Cosmic Log community by "liking" the log's Facebook page, following @b0yle on Twitter or adding me to your Google+ circle. You can also check out "The Case for Pluto," my book about the controversial dwarf planet and the search for other worlds.


I want a ticket on the "Jefferson Starship" if they decide do build one
"Black sails knifing through the pitchblende night
Away from the radioactive landmass madness
From the silver-suited people searching out
Uncontaminated food and shelter on the shores
No glowing metal on our ship of wood only
Free happy crazy people naked in the universe"
The technology already exists and the mechanism is quite simple in structure. Such a machine also slides the layering of time. Not something for the general public.
We are overconstraining the problem if we insist that any interstellar mission must be completed within one human lifetime. Humans have been known to complete projects that span many generations, though not often. Some cathedrals and other large monuments, for example, took that long to build.
Of course, when the final goal of a large project is so far in the future, fewer people are willing to come forward and contribute money to its construction, but there would be some. When the cost of a relatively slow-moving, unmanned interstellar probe becomes small enough to be supported by a few idealistic philanthropists, that's probably when they will be launched. With any luck, images of distant planets and moons will then be beamed back to Earth a few centuries later. Too bad all of us alive today will miss it, but in the long run it's probably inevitable.
We have been funding NASA with hundreds of billions of dollars for work projects (survival of the empire) and we are no further ahead than where we were on Oct, 11, 1966, Apollo 7.
When will we stop playing this make belief game, space race with subordinates, and start doing real science. Americana is a system second to none and we don't need to compete and work with countries decades behind. They will only impede our progress and deplete our resources. The only competition and incentive we need is to keep progressing on our own pace and vision.
We need to get out of this trap of allowing present technology to stagnant our progress, dictate the path to further exploration. We need to be honest with ourselves and identify the limits and make the necessary adjustments to keep going forward. I don't know of a better model than the proven classical scientific analysis, conjecture based of present technology, do the physics, do the experiments and observations, make the adjustments and move on.
All the answers are there in front of our eyes, the universe itself. We are living in positive time, all phenomena in the universe have a positive time direction, (increasing entropy), why? If we formulate a plan, produce a list of questions which answers will lead us towards answering this mystery and we will forever be moving forward. This should be NASA's agenda, pure science research.
I believe NASA is too big for it's own good. The aerospace and space R&D should be done in industry and let NASA focus on pure science research for the betterment of life on Mother Earth.
totally agree
I can just see the headlines on the london times August 3, 1492, msnbc section, page three, captioned picture of some boob, columbus in fact..."brit boffins baffled by bambozzler C.Columbus,all usuns having a good gaffe, same as the twit french next door, jeez, is the quenn of spain daft or what?"" see ad for our local flat earth society near the inset."
reality check indeed. FIRE THAT PUBLIC SERVANT AND GET SOMEONE WITH SOME VISION!!!!
I like the notion of a NGO doing something long term in R&D, it's a path we've never really explored.
Might be a whole lot more viable to be set up as a "20 year Mars Ship", at least as a target along the way.
Well I see that one question has spawned many diverse opinions, suggestions and such. Indeed there is a lot to consider when undertaking such a project, environmental concerns, monetary concerns, longevity concerns, the practical, the fundamental, etc. The middle east was selected because it is where most of the oil is coming from, and to destroy that area would get the ball rolling so to speak, as did the question in the first place. Solving most of the conflicts, removing impediments to progress and putting a boot the world's butt in one fell swoop, would be the same as killing two birds with one stone. The US has technology that is being hid for many good reasons, many of those reasons are reflected by the above opinions and statements, by many well meaning individuals.
Rocket Science is obviously not going to be the answer. As was calculated in one or two of the above comments, getting the resources from the earth is not going to work. Even if we manage to build the infrastructure to put an industrial space-station in orbit, beyond the moons orbit, and start with accumulating the resources, from our solar system, needed to build spacecraft capable of reaching the outer planets in less time that it has taken the space probes that have been sent already, it will take an effort from a unified people, as in all of humanity. There are just so many people willing to undermine what we already have today, that even thinking of such a possibility is just plain fantasy, and most of those people are in the middle east.
A technology that might actually work is one that would employ a wormhole strategy that would connect two areas of space-time, with the entire ship going through the projected opening. There would not be a need for FTL flight, or huge amounts of fuel-mass, etc. and the actual amount of time used in the travel process would be very small in comparison to current technologies that would take a lot of time and materials. While warp drive sound fun, there still would a lot of time needed to travel to even the nearest star, while travel via a wormhole would be near instantaneous. Current thought on wormholes seem to conclude that it would take the whole energy equivalent of our solar system just to get one to open and be stable long enough to get one ship through it, let alone know where/when the other end is going to be. Again these are the same ' knowledgeable ' individuals which are keeping the rest of us in the dark ages, and controlling what resources that are available, to keep us under their collective thumbs, and the money in their collective pockets.
Gravitational force is not one-sided. The expectation of a wormhole existing pretends that we ignore the principles of relativity in favor of a magical doorway that provides us with a dimensional leap beyond the dimensional boundaries of our present SpaceTime continuum.
It is amazing how many people will go along with an imaginative ideal just because it fits in some mathematical computation. Subsequently wormholes are just that, mathematical models of science fiction fantasy. Not everything that can be calculated to exist can exist in the dimensional aspection of our universe; or at least it can not exist per popularized media: "Science fiction fans love the possibility of other universes, even more so contemplating the possibility of being able to travel between them through exotic configurations of spacetime, notably wormholes, which are pretty much just black holes with an opening poking through the singularity." Indeed such descriptions suggest that a workable wormhole can be the alternate dimensional bridge between black hole and white hole pairs or the stretching of a singualrity that would allow our SpaceTime to bypass aspects of general, and even special relativity (all very 'Dr Who'ish). However these singularities are not aligned like magnets to allow attraction at one end and repulsion at the other end. Despite the illustrations of black holes to enhance our understanding of their theoretical behavior, there is no one entrance. One needs to consider such illustrations as a conceptual model of a black holes behavior; i.e., the concept is to be abstrated over the entire spherical surface. After all, the overriding precept here is gravitational force. Once you're in a black hole, there is no escape save the dissipated energy of your atoms being reorganized.
While black holes represent a warp in the fabric of SpaceTime, the use of the term warp is meant to be understood as a distortion rather than a hyperspace jump. SpaceTime distortions do not need to go anywhere, they are somewhat self-sufficient in the nature of their being. SpaceTime distortions are dead ends that allow for the transient nature of dimensional transitions in matter. Their very gravitational influence suggests that are not losing matter, but harnessing it to support the integrity of the black hole itself. [Kind of like an immense hurricane in SpaceTime, a black hole is the result of gravitational differences wthat support its condition.]
As a side note, there are no wormholes as well because the very existence of wormholes relies on the pairing of black holes or the pairing of a black hole and a white hole. There is no escape from a black hole (save the lost energy of matter being radiated), so paring black holes is an inept conception of travel. And since information can not be lost or created within an already created universe, the co-existence of a black hole and a while hole pairing imposes a SpaceTime paradox. More of the cosmological nature of the universe can be explored via the book, "The Evolutioning of Creation - Volume 2". http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/8/prweb8743267.htm
I have to disagree with you. Wormholes don't rely on the pairing of black holes or the pairing of a black hole and a white hole, as the geometry is totally different.
All geometry is seen from a 4D Hyperspace point of view.
You're presumptions are base on old information, that was based on a guess, based upon math that Einstein put forward. Wormhole cross-sections are transparent to Gravity, matter, kinetic energy, and light, in both directions, while the hyper-surface - i.e. the curved wall, dynamics are a different story, everything including matter itself has to follow the curve. A Wormhole, inside half of a torus, has a different geometry structure from that of the hourglass shape the Blackhole / Whitehole, or that of a sphere, or of space-time, outside half of a torus, the Point, the Surface Element scalar, or the candy wrapper, all of which are functions of the same equation:
that forms the DPHE. The relationships between the scalar values of the hyper-vectors of R1 and R2, are what give the seven different geometries that you see in the video. Kipthorn used the idea proposed by Carl Sagan, but used the spherical geometry as the endpoints of the wormholes used in the movie "Contact", and you having had no experience with the subject at hand, have made statements which are erroneous, from my point of view. Gravitational force is generated from the curvature of the geometrical structure of Space-time, and not from matter itself, which is the opposite view of everyone else. All force is applied through the action of Push, and not Pull. Gravity Pushes matter together. Matter does not pull itself together. Matter attenuates the force of gravity. This is why smaller bodies of matter are Pushed towards larger bodies of matter.
"Information"
Are you confusing thoughts and information? Thoughts are not information which is why we can think faster than the speed of light. Although thoughts are qualitative manifestions of potential realities they remain without a quantitative state until they are applied to create physical phenomena. This why we can think of such implausible theories like wormholes and multiple dimensions.
I believe the study and progress of physics will be better served if we take Dr Einstein's example and do mind experiments before we show our ignorance to the world.
To my way of thinking, we are 1000 years behind. I have to wonder what the world would have been like if the headway and development trajectory started by the Greeks and Romans had continued.
It would be nice to think we would advance culturally as fast as we do technologically. But sadly we would have ended up with nukes in the hands of who - Vikings?
I believe we have made an exponential progress in the last century. With the tremendous progress in high energy particle physics I also feel that we are at the eve of a great breakthrough that will solve are energy needs once and for all.
It is clear that the highest capacity in energy generation is nuclear, however at the moment it also carries the highest risks. I believe it will be possible to clear up the nuclear reactions and finally make nuclear energy the norm.
I don't think God will mind if we twig a bit some of his processes to better benefit us. I is not like we will be messing with His DNA, which I don't think we are capable or will ever be capable.
https://indico.fnal.gov/getFile.py/access?resId=1&materialId=8&confId=3579
It occurred to me that someone should ask- WHICH SPEED OF LIGHT? The speed of light has been shown to vary- getting slower as it nears a star and at it's fastest when zipping between galaxies. What happens as one goes from one area- like within a solar system- and then the S-O-L gets bumped up as you exit that solar system. Of course, when one thinks about it, it means that the S-O-L actually encompasses an entire range of speeds from the slowest to the fastest rates.
Won't be 200 years. As soon as we get rid of Iran, North Korea, and most of the Middle East we can start worrying about important things like this. So maybe 40-50 years.
There are two types of space time that need to be discussed here so the average non physicist understands the difference and has a sense of meaning.
The first form of space time is Inert Time Space or ITS. What ITS is is the measureable distance or time, because is not time a measure of distance or length?, between the inert portions of time and space. What I mean by inert is that the variables involved with measuring ITS will never produce a matter/anti-matter reaction or energy nor will such a reaction of matter/anti-matter ever effect ITS to change the change the atomic structure of ITS because ITS does not have any energetic properties to change. ITS is the absolute of nothing being that it can never be effected upon nor effect upon any matter or anti-matter present within a determined area of space time. ITS would have been how the Universe was prior to the Big Bang.
The next form of space time is regular space time where all forms of matter both matter and anti-matter and the reactions between each type of energy can be measured across a defineable distance of time. Regular space would include Dark Matter which is not space itself but is a remnant of the extreme energy that was left over at the beginning of the Big Bang.
Once Dark Matter is understood and calculated into the formula of understanding how light is affected by Dark Matter then we will be able to use Dark Matter to create a new field around a ship that when certain frequencies are sent through the Dark Matter field will repel any and all forms of atoms away from the ship.
Just because an atom cannot be seen does not mean that it cannot create a wall of force against a ship.
Everyone here has probably been swimming before. We all know that the higher that you jump into a pool of water from the more likely you will be killed as the water becomes like a concrete wall.
If you can find the answer to the question of why this occurs then you will have a basic understanding of how traveling at faster than light speed velocities will create a wall of atoms that will crumple our starship.