Amazon billionaire Jeff Bezos aims to bring up Apollo 11's sunken engines

NASA file

The five giant F-1 engines on Apollo 11's Saturn 5 rocket loom large during preparations for the 1969 launch from NASA's Kennedy Space Center. Amazon.com billionaire Jeff Bezos says his team has located the engines, which fell into the sea just minutes after liftoff.




Amazon.com's billionaire founder, Jeff Bezos, says he's funded a successful effort to locate the mammoth rocket engines that sent the Apollo 11 mission on the first leg of its mission to the moon — and now he's planning to bring them up from the Atlantic Ocean floor.

It's shaping up as the latest high-rolling undersea adventure, alongside film director James Cameron's dive to the deepest spot in the Pacific, British billionaire Richard Branson's Virgin Oceanic expedition and the Deepsearch submersible project backed by Google's Eric Schmidt.

Bezos' effort plays off his longtime fascination with outer space — a passion that is also driving his decade-old Blue Origin rocket venture. Like Blue Origin, the undersea recovery project is being funded from the dot-com billionaire's personal fortune.


Destined for museums
The five F-1 rocket engines were on the first stage of Apollo 11's Saturn 5 rocket, which dropped into the Atlantic just minutes after liftoff in 1969. In an online statement, Bezos acknowledges that the undersea artifacts, like other hardware associated with the space effort, still belongs to NASA — and he imagines that one of the engines would go on display at the Smithsonian. But in today's announcement, he says he's asked NASA to consider having another engine sent to the Museum of Flight — which happens to be in Seattle, Amazon.com's hometown.

Rocketdyne built more of the 18-foot-tall F-1 engines than were needed for the Apollo missions, and some of those surplus engines have been placed on display, either attached to Saturn stages or as standalone exhibits. One can be seen at the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum in Washington, for example, and there's another at the Smithsonian's Udvar-Hazy Center in Virginia.

The idea of recovering Apollo 11's engines has been debated for more than 10 years, ever since Project Mercury's Liberty Bell 7 space capsule was raised from the Atlantic seafloor in 1999, said Robert Pearlman, editor of the CollectSpace website and an expert on space history and collectibles. NASA and the U.S. Navy had a good idea where the Saturn 5's first stage splashed down, which probably served as a clue for Bezos' search, he said.

In his statement, Bezos said the engines were located using "state-of-the-art deep-sea sonar," but it's not yet fully clear whether the sonar operation was done using deep-diving underwater robots — as was the case with the recent Titanic mapping project — or strictly with surface equipment. A spokesman for Amazon.com told me that no further details about the project would be shared today.

Pearlman was particularly intrigued to learn that Bezos was already in discussions with NASA about the potential disposition of the rocket engines. "If I were a betting fellow, I would say that Bezos is closer to mounting an expedition than the statement seems to imply," he said. "Which is really cool." 

Lessons from Liberty Bell
Curt Newport, the underwater salvage expert who orchestrated the raising of Liberty Bell 7, said bringing up the engines would pose significant challenges. He assumes that the engines are among other pieces of debris from the Saturn 5's first stage that are spread across the sea floor. "The information I found suggested that [the stage] broke up due to aerodynamic forces before it hit the water," he told me.

Verifying that the engines are from Apollo 11 rather than a different Apollo mission would require checking parts numbers against NASA's database, he said. And bringing up the engines would not be a trivial task.

"If they're intact, they're like nine tons each," Newport told me. "That is not going to be easy to bring to the surface."

Bezos said in his statement that the condition of the engines was not yet known.

Here's the full statement from Bezos, via his Bezos Expeditions website.

"The F-1 rocket engine is still a modern wonder — one and a half million pounds of thrust, 32 million horsepower, and burning 6,000 pounds of rocket grade kerosene and liquid oxygen every second. On July 16, 1969, the world watched as five particular F-1 engines fired in concert, beginning the historic Apollo 11 mission. Those five F-1s burned for just a few minutes, and then plunged back to Earth into the Atlantic Ocean, just as NASA planned. A few days later, Neil Armstrong stepped onto the moon.

"Millions of people were inspired by the Apollo Program. I was 5 years old when I watched Apollo 11 unfold on television, and without any doubt it was a big contributor to my passions for science, engineering, and exploration. A year or so ago, I started to wonder, with the right team of undersea pros, could we find and potentially recover the F-1 engines that started mankind's mission to the moon?

"I'm excited to report that, using state-of-the-art deep sea sonar, the team has found the Apollo 11 engines lying 14,000 feet below the surface, and we're making plans to attempt to raise one or more of them from the ocean floor. We don't know yet what condition these engines might be in — they hit the ocean at high velocity and have been in salt water for more than 40 years. On the other hand, they're made of tough stuff, so we'll see.

"Though they've been on the ocean floor for a long time, the engines remain the property of NASA. If we are able to recover one of these F-1 engines that started mankind on its first journey to another heavenly body, I imagine that NASA would decide to make it available to the Smithsonian for all to see. If we're able to raise more than one engine, I've asked NASA if they would consider making it available to the excellent Museum of Flight here in Seattle. (For clarity, I'll point out that no public funding will be used to attempt to raise the engines, as it's being undertaken privately.)

"NASA is one of the few institutions I know that can inspire 5-year-olds. It sure inspired me, and with this endeavor, maybe we can inspire a few more youth to invent and explore.

"We'll keep you posted."

Update for 2:15 p.m. ET March 29: In comments distributed to journalists on Wednesday, NASA spokesman Bob Jacobs had some nice things to say about Bezos' project but noted that the space agency has not yet been involved in formal talks about recovery of the engines.

"We read Mr. Bezos's blog post with the same excitement as I am sure others have today," CollectSpace's Robert Pearlman quoted Jacobs as saying. "We have not had any formal contact with Mr. Bezos about the Apollo engines but we look forward to hearing more from his team and the recovery expedition."

Jacobs said "the rules regarding NASA property in the ocean are the same as those that govern sunken ships and other government property, including our hardware on the moon and other celestial bodies. ... As Mr. Bezos points out in his blog, the federal government retains ownership until the property is properly disposed."

"However, we do not see that as any impediment to the recovery efforts of the Apollo engines," Jacobs wrote. 

He drew a parallel to the Liberty Bell 7 case: "Gus Grissom's Liberty Bell 7 spacecraft was recovered from the bottom of the Atlantic in 1999 through a private venture. Ownership of the spacecraft was eventually turned over to the Kansas Cosmosphere, where it remains on public display." (I originally wrote that Liberty Bell 7 was raised in 1997, but I was two years off.)

Jacobs sees Bezos' venture as a positive step for space history: "There has always been great interest in artifacts from the early days of space exploration and his announcement only adds to the enthusiasm of those interested in NASA's history," The Associated Press' Alicia Chang quoted him as saying.

Update for 10:30 p.m. ET April 1: In a statement released on Friday, NASA Administrator Charles Bolden indicated that he's totally on board with Bezos' plan:

"I would like to thank Jeff Bezos for his communication with NASA informing us of his historic find. I salute him and his entire team on this bold venture and wish them all the luck in the world.

"NASA does retain ownership of any artifacts recovered and would likely offer one of the Saturn V F-1 engines to the Smithsonian Institution’s National Air and Space Museum in Washington under longstanding arrangements with the institution as the holder of the national collection of aerospace artifacts.

"If the Smithsonian declines or if a second engine is recovered, we will work to ensure an engine or other artifacts are available for display at the Museum of Flight in Seattle, as Jeff requested in his correspondence with my office. I have directed our staff to begin work to exercise all appropriate authorities to provide a smooth and expeditious disposition of any flight hardware recovered.

"I sincerely hope all continues to go well for Jeff and Blue Origin, and that his team enjoys success and prosperity in every endeavor. All of us at NASA have our fingers crossed for success in his upcoming expedition of exploration and discovery."

More about space history:


Alan Boyle is msnbc.com's science editor. Connect with the Cosmic Log community by "liking" the log's Facebook page, following @b0yle on Twitter or adding Cosmic Log's Google+ page to your circle. You can also check out "The Case for Pluto," my book about the controversial dwarf planet and the search for other worlds.

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Not sure how you can bring up just one engine... all five are integrated into the first stage.

  • 1 vote
Reply#27 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:13 PM EDT

And though they may not be very far apart (which could still mean hundreds of yards), I'm quite sure that all that integration ceased, when the stage impacted the water...

    #27.1 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:50 PM EDT
    Reply

    Why are they still NASA's property? Why aren't they considered abandoned property?

    • 1 vote
    Reply#28 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:14 PM EDT

    This is ridiculous! The guy is simply feeding his own ego instead of putting the money toward a worthwhile cause.

      Reply#29 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:14 PM EDT

      Definition of worthwhile cause: something that I want someone else to get done.

      • 1 vote
      #29.1 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:23 PM EDT
      Reply

      I think this is great! It is his money, let him spend it the way he wants to!

        Reply#30 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:19 PM EDT

        Have we considered the possibility that it could be "all Bush's fault?" :-)

        • 1 vote
        Reply#31 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:23 PM EDT

        Lets not forget Jeff Bezo is one of the reasons why just about every city and state in America is bankrupt. He is a very intelligent man that used a loophole in tax law to build a very large business at the expense of the rest of America. Now all states are no longer going to allow these loopholes and it is in his best interest in getting people to support him and Amazon. Yet again why he is an intelligent man. Just remeber all those deals you got on Amazon when you dial 911 and it takes them 10X longer to respond. That money you saved not paying sales tax to Amazon was the reason why the fire and police departments are cutting staff and service due to lack of funding. Jeff Bezo is also a Billionaire at your expense and that of your local community!

          Reply#32 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:25 PM EDT

          Tell them that in Oregon, Montana, Alaska, New Hampshire and Delaware, where they have no sales tax to begin with...

            #32.1 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:53 PM EDT
            Reply

            It is definitely cool if he can bring back the engines. The only thing that bothers me about this is that there are billionaires spending money on this type of thing and then dodge every US corporate tax assessment they can. And most of them are liberal's who keep telling Obama to spend more money on the poor and disenfranchised. When are any of them going to spend the money it takes for these endevours on some of those poor folks in the US?? Can you spell h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e??

              Reply#33 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:32 PM EDT

              WHAT?

                #33.1 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:34 PM EDT

                "When are any of them going to spend the money it takes for these endevours on some of those poor folks in the US??"

                How do you know they don't?

                With a few exceptions like the (Bill) Gates Foundation, you wouldn't.

                And I'm sure that if some wealthy person stood up and shouted; "Hwy, I'm giving $50 million to 'X' charity!" some wag would invariably say; "Yeah, what about the rest of your money??"

                Why work hard to make a lot of (after tax, now mind you) money, if you can't spend it on the stuff you want to do, that isn't possible on a middle-class income? Why?

                  #33.2 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:01 PM EDT
                  Reply

                  "Oh Lord, are there people hungry, still?" Jackson Browne

                    Reply#34 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:39 PM EDT

                    Too bad they weren't made to be reuseable in those days.

                    Hmmm. The first interstellar spacecraft will likely be an international effort like the International Space Station. But when nations begin building their own interstellar spacecraft its probably a good thing we're not there yet. There's no rule of law that say's nations cannot build their own interstellar spacecraft and there likely would never be any such law, and it would be another space race for control of space and its resources. Even if we find a habitable planet with no intelligent life to colonize I guess we'd have to hope that planet wasn't stuck in an evolutionary stage with dinosaurs ruling the planet. Ironic, a major advance in the space age transports humanity to a prehistoric world.

                      Reply#35 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:03 PM EDT

                      There is a law. They are tyring to stop North Korea from launching a satellite into orbit. They fear it is a test of their ballistic missile (FEAR CONTROLS EVERYTHING)

                        #35.1 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:57 PM EDT
                        Reply

                        Think of all the cancer research that could be done (instead) with all that money.\

                        What a shame.

                          Reply#36 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:16 PM EDT

                          The curse for cancers already exists minus the cure for the corporate cancer of the pharmaceauticals and their greed. That's why there will never be a cure for cancer, unless they get seriously hacked. Since the 1980's we've heard of cures by the newsmedia, InterLukin and several others. And there is still no cure that is widely available. Its cheaper to die.

                          • 1 vote
                          #36.1 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:27 PM EDT
                          Reply

                          What a waste of time, effort, and money when so many people are out of work.
                          Billionaires cheat workers out of fair wages to make themselves rich and then squander it so foolishly.

                            Reply#37 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:21 PM EDT

                            "What a waste of time, effort, and money when so many people are out of work."

                            Do you think Bezos is doing this all by himself? I have no doubt that the marine salvage company he'll have to hire is just fine with having the work...and those people don't come cheap.

                            Do you think the Dutch company working on the Costa Concordia is doing it for free...?

                            You may not think it's worthwhile to do, but you will have to pay someone to do it.

                              #37.1 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:09 PM EDT
                              Reply

                              This is why we need billionaires. This (and hopefully private space endeavors) would not be accomplished without them.

                              • 1 vote
                              Reply#38 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:36 PM EDT

                              How 'bout 30 of those rocket engines (reuseable) to launch a Football Stadium sized cargo ship into orbit. And to build several such cargo ships. That establishes a commercial market presence between earth and space. Let's say that could be done by 2020.

                                Reply#39 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:38 PM EDT

                                We could even tow one or two to the Moon and Mars, learn to retrofit or refit them in space for interplanetary travel.

                                  #39.1 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:43 PM EDT

                                  Are you sure your name is't Newt G.

                                    #39.2 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:49 PM EDT

                                    Oh and that's why Billionaires need people like me, to steal and profit from our ideas.

                                    No its not Jack A and its way better than Newt Gingritches clueless promises.

                                    If we don't come up with a space plan then we'll never get out there like we could be.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #39.3 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:50 PM EDT

                                    Eric I was joking I agree whole heartily. Another man suggested catching the empty fuel tanks floating in space and connecting them together to make the space station (but not enough profit)

                                      #39.4 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:01 PM EDT
                                      Reply

                                      This is like the recovery of sunken ships (centuries) ago. If you bring up treasures the country that owned the ship gets the booty. Like the guy that found J.F.K.'s PT 109. He was not allowed the excavate it as the Government declared it a tomb (it's in foreign waters)

                                        Reply#40 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:45 PM EDT

                                        While I'll agree some of what these guys are doing is very cool but why not spend the millions, if not billions, they have collectively spent to help people around the world. I mean come on diving to the deepest part of the ocean just because? Lets spend that cash helping find a cure for cancer, or something else worth while.

                                          Reply#41 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:48 PM EDT

                                          If there weren't people like this The world would still be flat, and the Sun would be revolving around the Earth. It takes exploration to advance!

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #41.1 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:53 PM EDT

                                          Kinda takes exploration beyond Gingrynch, eh. LOL

                                            #41.2 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:13 PM EDT

                                            I'm all for exploration but this is tantamount to a billionaire pissing contest. They could have pooled their money, created one great project that actually worked and still had millions left for other more scientific avenues. Keep in mind Cameron's "journey" was intended to be scientific in nature, he just failed. There is nothing exploitative or scientific about bringing up old space junk that we already have record of.

                                              #41.3 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:54 PM EDT
                                              Reply

                                              Yep, we need to develop a system of interplanetary commerce and we should make it one of our nations long term goals. Science, research, development, and all sorts of Production will drive the gears of that economy.

                                                Reply#42 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:22 PM EDT

                                                I flew the first Scramjet Rotorcraft in existence. "They" canned me and my project. This aircraft made the Apache look like a brick wall going through the air.

                                                We are holding ourselves back. Maybe it is time for Zuckerberg to launch "THE" Facebook 1 flight to anywhere but here.

                                                  Reply#43 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:03 PM EDT

                                                  I still say it's finders keepers.

                                                    Reply#44 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:12 PM EDT

                                                    Has it occurred to anyone that Mr.Bezo's intention is to reverse engineer Apollo 11 engines to use in his own civilian space project, Blue Origin?

                                                      Reply#45 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:55 PM EDT

                                                      Does anyone know if there are any F1's left to re-engineer? Would they be of any benefit or better than what we have now?

                                                        #45.1 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:46 PM EDT

                                                        You don't have to recover sunken engines to do that. There are a number of them in pristine shape that never went anywhere, and a manufacturer (Rocketdyne) who would probably be happy to remake them for you, probably with better materials, for the right price...

                                                        And while you can argue whether those sunken engine still belong to NASA, there's little doubt that the F-1 design still belongs to Rocketdyne,and they (and their lawyers) would take a very dim view of anyone trying to 'reverse engineer' them. Either arrange to buy some (if you can afford it), or design and build your own engines (as Elon Musk did with the Falcon Merlins).

                                                        This is about the historical value of these particular engines, because they were part of the Apollo-11 Saturn V. Nothing else.

                                                          #45.2 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:19 PM EDT
                                                          Reply

                                                          Another case of too much wealth for their own good. Imagine what all that squandered money could have done for the needy of the world! For shame!

                                                            Reply#46 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:58 PM EDT

                                                            See folks, with billionaires like Bezos, Branson and Cameron involved in both oceanic and space exploration, the Federal Government doesn't really need to be funding this stuff anymore.

                                                              Reply#47 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:25 PM EDT

                                                              Mr. Bezos,

                                                              Thank you. I am always happy when someone who has worked hard and made money reinvests in projects such as scientific or archaeological endeavors that otherwise would never get funding or done.

                                                              I am looking forward to seeing one of the engines in a museum. Perhaps, for the other three engines assuming all can be brought to the surface, in addition to the two museums mentioned, those remaining three can go to some of the "runners-up" museums that bid for but did not receive a Space Shuttle. I am biased towards one engine going to the National Museum of the US Air Force in Dayton, Ohio since the Air Force was such an integral part of the space program. http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/

                                                              Still, no matter where they end up, it is great that you have done this service allowing these to be seen again.

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              Reply#48 - Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:00 PM EDT

                                                              Perhaps he is planning to sell the engines to China, France or even India? Countries that are already planning manned space missions.

                                                              Yet here we sit in the US with no manned lift vehicle of our own.

                                                              The US jumped into the space program and went to the moon, primarily because the Russians were getting a jump on us. We gained significant technology from the science to go into space, so are we going to now sit back and let the rest of the world fly by us? Want jobs in the US? We have to get back in the front of the technology arena and space is a good way to get there.

                                                                Reply#49 - Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:04 AM EDT

                                                                "Perhaps he is planning to sell the engines to China, France or even India? Countries that are already planning manned space missions."

                                                                You, sir, have never heard of ITAR. As a man operating an aerospace company (Blue Origin) I'm sure Jeff has.

                                                                Besides, it would be much more straightforward for China to try to hack their way into Rocketdyne's computers and possibly just get all the data they need (in addition to whatever's known of the F-1 in open literature).

                                                                There's no need to be conspiratorial, some things are just what they seem.

                                                                And since when has France had an interest in a LOX/kerosene engine that size? I doubt even China does...

                                                                  #49.1 - Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:24 PM EDT
                                                                  Reply

                                                                  Thank You Werner Von Braun , former NAZI by default and creator of the V2 . NEVER forget that the US wanted this guy and his band of brains. I have always believed he was a good man , and a real visionary for good reasons but was caught up in a very wrong time and circumstance. I sure hope the years of salt water and oxygen have not taken a huge toll on the 8th wonder of the world !

                                                                    Reply#50 - Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:03 AM EDT

                                                                    Look up 'Operation Paperclip.' He and many of his fellow engineers made a point of surrendering to the US, because they were quite aware that they would not be treated as well by the Soviets...

                                                                      #50.1 - Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:26 PM EDT
                                                                      Reply

                                                                      This absolutely needs to be done. However I disagree that "the engines remain the property of NASA." You leave something at the bottom of the ocean for 40 years and you most certainly do not have a claim on them !

                                                                        Reply#51 - Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:01 AM EDT
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