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Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Yosef Garfinkel, an archaeologist at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, shows off an ark, or stone shrine model, that was found during excavations at Khirbet Qeiyafa, an ancient settlement southwest of Jerusalem.
An archaeological dig near Goliath's biblical hometown has yielded evidence of Judean religious practices 3,000 years ago, pointing up fresh historical connections to the stories of King David and King Solomon.
"We have a city with a population relating to the Kingdom of Judah," Yosef Garfinkel, an archaeologist at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, told me today. "This is totally different from Philistine, Canaanite or the cult in the Kingdom of Israel."
The site, known today as Khirbet Qeiyafa, is about 20 miles (30 kilometers) southwest of Jerusalem, on top of a hill overlooking the Valley of Elah. For the past five years, Garfinkel and his colleagues have been excavating the ruins of a fortified city there, situated across from what was once the Philistine city of Gath. In the Bible, the giant Goliath came out from Gath to face the Israelites, and was smitten by a rock hurled from David's sling.
Garfinkel can't vouch for the story of Goliath, but he says the weapons, the cult items and even the animal bones found around Khirbet Qeiyafa support his view that the settlement was a key military outpost for the historical House of David, riven by conflict. "There was something here quite military and quite aggressive," he said. "It was not a peaceful village."
Based on radiocarbon dating of burned olive pits found at the site, archaeologists believe the ancient city lasted for only 40 years, from 1020 to 980 B.C., before it was destroyed. Some skeptics have suggested that Khirbet Qeiyafa was just another Canaanite settlement, and that David was at best a minor chieftain, or perhaps a folkloric figure like Robin Hood. But Garfinkel said the items found at the site strengthen the connection to King David and the religious practices specified in the Bible.
"Over the years, thousands of animal bones were found, including sheep, goats and cattle, but no pigs," he said in a news release from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. "Now we uncovered three cultic rooms, with various cultic paraphernalia, but not even one human or animal figurine was found. This suggest that the population on Khirbet Qeiyafa observed two biblical bans — on pork and on graven images — and thus practiced a different cult from that of the Canaanites or the Philistines."
Garfinkel told me that the absence of human imagery was peculiar to the Judeans. "In the northern Kingdom of Israel, you find human representations," he said.
Hebrew University of Jerusalem
One of the cultic standing stones can be seen in this picture of the Khirbet Qeiyafa site.
Hebrew University of Jerusalem
This basalt altar was found during excavations at Khirbet Qeiyafa.
Hebrew University of Jerusalem
A decorated clay shrine model was found at the Khirbet Qeiyafa site.
The cult objects included five standing stones, two basalt altars, two pottery libation vessels and two portable shrines. Garfinkel said the shrines reflected a Mesopotamian architectural style that went back centuries before the era of King David, and probably inspired the look of the palace built by Solomon, David's son. "It seems that Solomon didn't want to be Canaanite and took a different model from Mesopotamia," Garfinkel told me.
The shrines are boxlike containers made of stone or clay. "I think they were called in Hebrew 'Aron,'" Garfinkel wrote in an email. "This had been translated into English as 'ark' and became a mystic artifact. I think that the Hebrew name was just a simple technical term: a box for keeping god symbols."
Such shrines were probably similar in look to the "Ark of God" highlighted in the Bible as well as in such movies as "Raiders of the Lost Ark."
The clay shrine has an intricate facade, featuring two guardian lions, pillars and birds standing on the roof. The stone shrine was painted red, and its facade is decorated with characteristic triglyph symbols as well as a triple-recessed doorway in front. Garfinkel said the Bible may have referred to those architectural features in its description of Solomon's palace. The technical term usually translated as referring to pillars ("Slaot") may actually be talking about triglyphs, while another term that was thought to refer to windows ("Sequfim") might instead refer to the doorways.
"Now you can see by the model that you have triglyphs at the roof, and you have recessed doorways," Garfinkel said. Such features are also mentioned in biblical references to King Solomon's temple, which was built decades after the age that gave rise to the shrines found at Khirbet Qeiyafa.
Will these finds settle the debate over the historical David? Garfinkel would like to think so. "Various suggestions that completely deny the biblical tradition regarding King David and argue that he was a mythological figure, or just a leader of a small tribe, are now shown to be wrong," he said in today's news release.
But The Times of Israel quoted Bar-Ilan University's Aren Maeir, who's in charge of the dig at Gath, as saying the discoveries don't provide any dramatic new evidence for either side in the debate. For example, the fact that the clay shrine was decorated with lions and birds undercuts Garfinkel's claim that no graven images were found at the site. The Israeli newspaper Haaretz quoted another expert, Tel Aviv University's Nadav Na'aman, as saying that the Canaanites, like the Judeans, observed a ban on eating pork.
Maeir said the distinctions between the various peoples mentioned in the Bible — including David's Israelites and Goliath's Philistines — were "fuzzier than the way they are often described."
"There's no question that this is a very important site, but what exactly it was — there is still disagreement about that," Maeir said. In a blog posting, Maeir said "what is clearly missing is a close interface with mainstream biblical and [Ancient Near East] textual scholars."
What do you think? Feel free to weigh in with your vote in the poll above, or add your comments below.
More about biblical archaeology:
- In Israel, diggers unearth the Bible's bad guys
- Dig yields what may be the oldest Hebrew text
- Artifact suggests Bible written centuries earlier
- Professor hunts for the 'Lost Ark of the Covenant'
- Gallery: Eight Jewish archaeological discoveries
- Cosmic Log archive on archaeology
Alan Boyle is msnbc.com's science editor. Connect with the Cosmic Log community by "liking" the log's Facebook page, following @b0yle on Twitter and adding the Cosmic Log page to your Google+ presence. You can also check out "The Case for Pluto," my book about the controversial dwarf planet and the search for new worlds.
Leave a Comment:
70% of 61 people believe every word in the bible is true. Totall insignificant. I feel sorry for those 42.
Oy.
I can't say I can be sorry for people who can't use their brains.... It was a "Man" who "INVENTED" monotheism in the 1st place
This site 20 miles away from Jerusalem makes far more sense for being the actual City of David. The one they claim is in Jerusalem is too new
Don't feel sorry for the 42, it is you and the remaining 19 that need to be pitied. You will be the ones that will suffer for eternity.
51msg
Are you happy worshiping a god that is so petty and vain that he'll damn one to eternal damnation for doubting? It's pathetic.
51msg; how does making childish threats make you look in the eyes of your god?
Feeling sorry for those forced to believe in a god, I can see, if they came to their god on of their own free will - why feel anything (unless it is personally affecting you?). Pity; is that what religion tells its followers to feel towards those they disagree with.
Mo and 51 are both self serving - disagreement should be opined so that your views are supported with conviction, not contempt.
Why does a symbol on stone work mean it is religious in nature? It is too bad that those working and evaluating this site are more concerned with proving something, than looking at its total historical value. Are they saying every aspect of these historical artifacts means these people were completely consumed with religion? For all we know it could be a trash can.
Mike
So everybody who wasn't lucky enough to be born in a Christian family or a Christian country is sending him/herself to hell for eternity?
There's no eternity, they just cooked that up to sell cards and candy, like Mother's Day
Interesting story.
Doug; Jesus believed that if everyone were of the same faith that he was - earth would be a heavenly place - there was no outer-space heaven/eternity. Since we are nothing but energy - there is an eternity - your body today might become tree food tomorrow. I'm not sure what good your body does sitting in a casket. The Bible eternity is another of those Pope footnotes from 300 plus years after JC.
Is Jesus the religion or is religion Jesus? I'm pretty sure Jesus had no clue during his life that he would become what he has... trippy.
I'm just blown away by all the people who voted that every word of the bible was true.
:D
Believe in me or go to hell. Sounds a lot like Islam to me. Stupid myths and superstitions.
drainbramage,
The symbols are representations on unspoken names. Names are (were) all powerful in the ancient world because naming a demon or demigod gave the namer power over that demon or demigod, to command or destroy it. So symbology is important.
WolfRayet,
Christ said I am the gateway, He did NOT say he was the ONLY path. The New Testament is often construed in that manner, but Christ himself offered parables of other faiths, like the Samaritan, and other circumstances, the Egyptian eunuch, and even other pursuits, such as the tale of the talents. Christ is actually a broad gateway, demanding only love of God (singular) and love of your fellow man.
I admire your faith, because what happens if your atheists are correct? Nothing, you cant even tell the christians, I told you so.
The christians, typically live their lives just like everyone else, except they take the time to pray and believe in god. If they are wrong, they still have lived full lives helping others.
If they are right and the atheists are wrong, well im sure you know what happens..
Archeology is interesting especially something that ancient regardless whether a religious artifact or not. Best to keep an open mind that as not spoil the joy of finding such a treasure of art and historic value as in any other archaeological findings.
It wouldn't matter what people believe except for one thing: Abrahamic cultists are:
1. Bloodthirsty warmongers who are determined to impose their laws and beliefs on others.
2. Believe the earth and all of nature exist for their use, and therefore have no compunction against global destruction.
3. Brainwash children before they are old enough to choose for themselves, creating generation after generation of psychologically damaged individuals.
4. Teach that women are evil and to be oppressed.
Nothing in this archaeological find either supports or undermines faith in the Bible, or a Judeo-Christian god.
Personally, I find the concept ridiculous, that a being who is all-powerful, all wise and all loving could have constructed such a screwed up world.
My guess is that if there is a supreme ruler of the universe, he [she or it] is not particularly concerned with the fate of humanity, or, that like most people he occasionally has a bad day, or series of days, such as the 6 days he purportedly took to create this world.
But the archaeological find is quite interesting. It says a great deal about the persistence of human culture, and demonstrate how deeply some of the roots of Judeo-Christian beliefs may extend.
@51msg,
"... you are the ones who will suffer for all eternity..." Isn't this really all believers have; Threats? Isn't this a perfect illustration of Yahweh's and Jesus only device... extortion. Believe or burn for all eternity; that is not a rational, reasonable set of options. There is no free will in that set and there is certainly no perfect love.
The bible contradicts itself dozens if not hundreds of times; there are contradictions on the very first page. It is obviously a flawed human invention and not the instruction of a perfect omnipotent being. That is not persecution, defamation, hate or irreverence; it is simple statement of fact.
Irreverence will soon follow, but that is a natural reaction to pure stupidiity. There is no special moral imperative in the bible, it is not unique; it is a common, garden variety creation myth similar to dozens of others in the ancient world.
Like the Epic Of Gilgamesh, The Iliad, and so many others it is of great cultural value, contains fine poetry, folk wisdom and even some accurate history, but it is also full of primitive nonsense like seven headed dragons, animals that talk and hoses that fly. In short, the bible does not rise above the level of its contemporary literary companions.
Jesus practices common 1st century magic. He cures blindness with spit and mud, changes water into wine... these are not miracles; there are con men in India today who still practice the same tricks. Rising from the dead was also a very common attribution in the ancient world; literally hundreds of characters are said to have done so including Osiris, Hercules and Mithras. There are even characters in the bible who thought Jesus was Elijah, or John the Baptist, "... risen from the grave." And don't forget Lazeraus... If resurrection was such a big deal, what becomes of Lazeraus; he did it first!
Garfinkle contradicts himself several times in this article. In short, these excavations don't solve the puzzle once and for all... they simply point out the fact that the Jews and their neighbors lived in close proximity and shared a great deal in common... culturally.
No they don't. Evangelical Christians want everyone else to share their beliefs and are incrementally injecting their religion into our politics. Take a look at what is happening in states across the country. Arizona just passsed a law saying life begins two weeks before conception! How nuts is that? Christians fear and criticize other religions as cults (Mormon) or extremist (Islam) when it is actually they who are threatening the very freedoms on which this country was built. Mega churches are as bad as the madrassas they fear....mixing politics with religion. Wake up America.
Bill Marvell
You clearly have never actually read this "New Testament" of which you speak of, because in fact Christ does claim to be the only path, on more than one occasion. ("No man comes to the father but through me" etc etc. Emphasis mine, but seems pretty clear-cut there).
Now, you can believe or not, your choice--I'm not trying to say he's right or wrong. Just please don't be one of the far too many that twist the meanings of the words and stories in there to suit your own feelings and justifications.
I am not going to get into the religious debates with anyone on here, because they will go nowhere and are counter-productive, but I do want everyone to know that God is not going to condemn you to torture in fire for eternity. He would not do that, nor does it say that in the Bible. Although no one is sure exactly what hell is, the Bible mentions it as a separation from God, and probably someplace not unlike earth is today. The point being, He loves everyone too much to do something so cruel, and again, the Bible says nothing of burning in eternal hell fire.
Now, to the article, I am intrigued by no evidence of swine in the area. Sounds like a place that I and Jules Winfield could hang out comfortably. Ancient health nuts. Who would have thought it?
Define true? Does it mean literally? Not necessarily. I swear that atheists are a fundemenatlist when it comes to the bible as a Landmark Southern Baptist. I believe every word in the bible is true, however, I do not think that they are to be thought of literally.
I see it took about 2 seconds of this story being posted for the religion bashers to get busy. *sigh* Don't you have something better to do with your lives than worry about what other people believe. Perhaps you should focus on what they do.
I love how people claim "there is no God," or religion/monotheism is somthing that "man" just dreamed up or other cute, pseudo-intellectual claims like that, as if these people know, or actually have the capability of knowing. It does not make you "smart" or "intellectual" or whatever to say, "there is no God." It makes you sound foolish, because you are attempting to answer question from a scientific view point that science is not capable of answering. Science can neither prove nor disprove God, therefore there is no scientific evidence one way or the other. The question lies outside the realm of science. Furthermore, Jesus does claim to be the "Way" and, in my view He is. However, this can be interpreted broadly to mean that living a life as Jesus lived, caring for the poor, putting others before yourself, helping those whom society has marginalized, etc, is what is the way. Also, He claims it is the way to the "Father," that is if you truly want to KNOW God, you must follow Him. Notice it does not say, if you do not follow Him you will go to Hell. And as far as Hell goes, the Bible is deliberately vague on post-mortem theology. What does the after-life hold? Only God and those who have passed on TRULY know. We can speculate, but we don't know. All we can say is that each of us will be judged by an all loving, completley just God who knows everything about us, including every secret thing. I rather believe that God doesn't send people to Hell, whatever Hell is. People send themselves to Hell. If you think about Heaven and Hell as being states of being rather than physical places (since they do not exist in the physical realm) and Heaven is the state of being close to God and Hell is the state of being far from God, each of us decides if we want to live a life with or without God. All God does is honor that decision, both in this life and the life to come.
I believe it was Jesus that said the wages of sin is death...not eternal hell.
Eternal hell was created by the church to control the masses through fear and intimidation.
How 'bout those Royals!
Most lame attempt at excusing a vengful god the christian apologists ever came up with. How come that line of horse crap does't work in a court of law? A drug dealer isn't breaking any laws by selling people drugs because those people are choosing to buy them.
Nice try.
@myspellcheckerisbroken,
You conveniently point out a major biblical contradiction. The Old Testament is very vague on hell... it appears as really just an extrapolation of the grave... death itself is god's punishment.
But the New Tesament absolutely contains the concept of eternal torment in hell as punishment. Look up the chapter and verse yourself. John says those who do not "... abide in me (Jesus) are like sticks withered and cut off the vine and thrown into the fire."
Revelation says the, "Devil and all false prophets are are cast into the lake of fire and brimstone to be tormented day and night forever and ever." It further states that any one who says, "this book," (the bible) is not a true prophecy is, "torn from the book of life." It further states, "... whoever is not found in the book life was cast into the lake of fire."
Go on and tell the Evangelical Community that hell is a metaphor... they'll laugh at you. The point I make is the archeology described in this article does not prove the bible is the true word of an omnipotent being.
The fact that Civil War cannon balls can be found all around Atlanta GA reinforces the truth of the existence in fact of General Sherman, but they do not lend any weight to the imagined existence in fact of Scarlet O'Hara and Rhett Butler.
@ Vince-
"Science can neither prove nor disprove God, therefore there is no scientific evidence one way or the other."
Science was also unable to prove or disprove gravity...until it did.
Science was also unable to prove or disprove that the earth was round...until it did.
Science was also unable to prove or disprove that earth was not the center of the univers...until it did.
What has religion proved? PROVED?
Let's clarify. Most atheists will readily admit that the ultimate question of divinity is not something we really sure about. Based upon evidence we don't believe in a god, but there may very well be one.
When we say "there is no god" what we mean is that all mainstream versions of god cannot logically exist. Period. Using basic logic, the christian god cannot exist. That does not preclude some other deity (although I find it improbable), but no god exists that is 1) omnipotent, 2) omniscient, and 3) all just. The state of our word simply precludes it.
So, hypothetical theological/pseudo scientific question here.
Let's say you invent a time machine, you're a Christian, and you go back in space/time 3,000 years to where this archaeological site is. Let's also say that somehow in the course of your adventures the time machine gets broken and you get stuck in that era. Since Christ hasn't incarnated and died for your sins yet, should you convert to the Hebrew religion if you want to stand a chance of going to Heaven?
Despite the many interpretations, assumptions, writings, re-writings, translations, editings, versions, etc.? How does one reconcile the differences?
-Sam,
If we are wrong then the same thing happens if Christians were wrong except we did not waste all of that time praying and going to church for no reason. Wasted time is wasted money to most capitalist societies.
EngEsq,
What you are decribing here is the position of the agnostic, from A-gnosis, literally 'no knowledge'. An agnostic is one who is not sure whether or not there may be a god or gods.
An atheist, A-theist, 'no theism', no gods, is certain and sure.
If you hold that there "may very well be" a god, but you're just not sure, you're an agnostic not an atheist.
Comment # 1 restored for clarity.
What did that msg51 say. It was deleted so they better go pray for forgiveness.
What does that even mean? Which 61 people? btw, that's actually 42.7%. Was one of the 61 only .7 sure? What nonsense.
If Jesus isn't a major figure for some people, why do Mexicans name their kids "Jesus" without thinking twice about it, yet no European would dare name their kid "Jesus".
If God didn't exist, who would atheist have to complain about. At least that proved that HE serves a purpose.
Vince:
There is no Easter Bunny. Does that sound foolish to you?
Hey, hey, hey. People shouldn't get all caught up in arguing. I'm Lutheran. We belive by grace you are saved. So we aren't really big on the eternal damnation. But people on the Christ side, remember he doesn't want us to judge others. And the others who don't share our beliefs, please din't judge the whole congregation of the Christian belief by only a few people who judge you. I can see where you are coming form on the whole judgemental thing
#1.41
Wow so YOU speak for Jesus Christ and call Him a LIAR?
Matthew 7:1-29
1 “Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; 2 for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU. 3 Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Allow me to extract the straw from your eye’; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First extract the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw from your brother’s eye.
6 “Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw YOUR pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip YOU open.
7 “Keep on asking, and it will be given YOU; keep on seeking, and YOU will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to YOU. 8 For everyone asking receives, and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking it will be opened. 9 Indeed, who is the man among YOU whom his son asks for bread—he will not hand him a stone, will he? 10 Or, perhaps, he will ask for a fish—he will not hand him a serpent, will he? 11 Therefore, if YOU, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to YOUR children, how much more so will YOUR Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?
12 “All things, therefore, that YOU want men to do to YOU, YOU also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean.
13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.
15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].
21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
24 “Therefore everyone that hears these sayings of mine and does them will be likened to a discreet man, who built his house upon the rock-mass. 25 And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded upon the rock-mass. 26 Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be likened to a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand. 27 And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house and it caved in, and its collapse was great.”
28 Now when Jesus finished these sayings, the effect was that the crowds were astounded at his way of teaching; 29 for he was teaching them as a person having authority, and not as their scribes.
C;mon, Eagle, everyone who wants to have/read a Bible has one/reads one. Just cite a reference, don't post then entire passage. That's about as bad as people who cut and paste an entire website.
You know so very little about the Bible, and what is crazier is people are giving you a thumbs up . Maybe people dont really know or understand.
God doesnt damn any one for having doubts. It is quite normal to have doubts, and a famous character in the bible was Doubting Thomas. As for going to hell, that is not a choice that God makes, its a choice that each of us make. The free will given to us, allows us to freely love and choose, to make decisions in life and not be some kind of mechanical puppets. What God has given to us , he has done freely, its your choice to accept it or not.
umm...did i miss something?
So, hypothetical theological/pseudo scientific question here.
Let's say you invent a time machine, you're a Christian, and you go back in space/time 3,000 years to where this archaeological site is. Let's also say that somehow in the course of your adventures the time machine gets broken and you get stuck in that era. Since Christ hasn't incarnated and died for your sins yet, should you convert to the Hebrew religion if you want to stand a chance of going to Heaven?
The points you may have missed in the article is 1)that the people in that region hated each other then as much as they do now and 2) archeologists have no real idea what they are looking at and make general assumptions that support their theories.
@TillmanLea, STFU! You need to be banned if you're going to pull crap like that.
Looks like the first attempt at making a TV
So we've got one guy in Khirbet Qeiyafa claming one thing and the other guy in Gath claiming that first guy is full of crap. Sigh. I guess things never change. Maybe they should both send their most fearsome archeology grad students out to meet in the valley between and they could arm wrestle or something.
mj; that was great. We had a morning TV clown who we all watched before we headed off to school - he had his "I see you too TV"
Okay, all I'm getting is lines when I type - the old WIN XP is melting down - gotta post to see what comes up.
Wow, that's a lot like having to pass the bill in order to know what's in it.
I think this stuff about proving King David was a real person is neat. One thing about Jewish scripture that stands out is their care taken when reproducing the scriptures - validation of each copy was done by (seven?) reviewers who ensured that each copy was essentially the same as the source scripture. For those more interested in Jewish artifacts, read James Michener's The Source see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Source_(novel)
The idiot above (Mofo), on the other hand, isn't so neat. Such a loser.
Matt
So... you think every word in the bible is true? So, pray tell, (pun intended) did God create man and woman at the same time (Gen. 1:27) or was woman created as a companion to the man only after he rejected the animals (Gen. 2:18-24)?
This is only one of many internal contradictions in the Old Testament. The most basic logic cannot allow every word in the Bible to be true.
Thank you SMT. More people need to point out the many contradictions in the bible and where to find them. I would do it myself but unfortunately I'm just not that interested in spending my time on it. I lost interest in the bible when I saw how nasty most of its most vocal adherents are.
I do not think the Old Testament is a 'true' history, but is a written history that was once an oral history. Much like Homer's Iliad, except rather than stories of homeric noblemen, the Jewish scriptures focused on man's relationship with the One True God. The Adam and Eve story, for instance, is not an exact representation of what happened but carries the essence of The Fall of Man - and suffices to explain why we have "missed out on the pot of gold." (Styx) My point in the earlier posting is that due to the care taken, we can rely on the Jewish history as less confabulated than for example the Veda scripts. This doesn't mean Noah's Ark was as it is told, and that the properties of light were bent so that rainbows could exist to remind us of God's promise - instead, Noah's Ark is possibly a historical record of the Black Sea deluge - an event of significance whose effects can be seen still today, as at the once occupied hillsides of ancient Sinop deep beneath the anorexic waters. If I'm correct, this would make the Noah's Ark tale the only historical account of the deluge.
I agree Matt that the bible is not pure history. During confirmation I was taught that the bible is not meant to be a history book. Its a book to help understand your faith. The fact that its one of the few surviving written records from so long ago make people treat it as a history book though. And while its cool that some historical artifacts and archialogical dig sites can coroborate stories in the bible that is not what its there for. There are many many stories in the bible that contradict themselves. Thats cause it was written by several different people. As for the story of Noah's ark, there are several cultures that have stories of a great flood that all seem to originate at the same time. That points to the conclusion that one probably happened but it was most likely localized. However, if you'd never moved more than 100 miles from your birthplace in your life and there was water as far as you could see you'd probably think the entire world was flooded too. Thats one of the things people don't always remember, the people back then had a much different perspective.
Using a ancient myth to run a modern state in the current world is insanity and vanity of the most extreme. I know this truth to be self evident, "all men are created equal" there are no chosen.
If you think the bible is a historical book, why then is there no historical or archaeological evidence outside the bible that says anything about Israelite slaves in Egypt?
SMT
Genesis 1:24-31 states the events that happened on the sixth day. It says man and woman were created in God's image, but it never says they were created at the same time. Genesis 2:18-23 then goes on to explain in detail how Eve was created from Adam's rib. These passages aren't contradictory at all.
Matt, you seem like an intelligent guy. You are at least able to compose a more cogent sentence than many who post on these threads, but regarding other historical records of the Great Flood, you might want check this out:
http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html
And Justin, just to be clear, are you claiming that because the two verses in Genesis may not be contradictory that they are in fact literally true? Do you also believe in the literal truth of a talking snake and magic fruit?
Great article, Alan. However, these artifacts may prove that there was a man named Goliath but it doesn't mean a lot of things.
IMO, The Bible can be a historical record as far as some people who really existed. That's not the problem for a lot of people though. One of the problems is in this instance is the thing about Goliath literally being a "giant" as the Bible would have people to believe. Was David able to kill Goliath with just a sling shot? Even with these artifacts, you can't take the Bible literally in most cases. Jonah wasn't swallowed by a whale. Instead he had a whale of a problem. Could a man live to be 900 yrs. old? No, that's the way they measured grain in that time. These are just two examples of things taken literally from the Bible.
Forgot about Noah and his arc. The "experts" tried to claim that a wooden structure found on Mt. Arafat was Noah's ship with stalls for all the animals in the world. In fact they provided so called evidence. All of this info was provided by a religious group, not independent scientists.
Cain and Abel? Adam and Eve? So the brothers and sisters had sex with each other to multiply the world? Maybe even Adam and Eve having sex with their kids? According to some books, Adam had a first wife named Lilith. What happened with that? Does the Bible even mention that?
And of course one of the biggies from the Old Testament. Abraham was going to kill his son? God told him to? God sure was mean back in those days.
Right on, Darrah. I should have come out stronger on the point that Garfinkel doesn't think the Goliath story played out as described in the Bible. "This is the nature of history: some mythology, some folkloric stories, some information that is useful," he said. "I'm not saying [everything is] really history, but it's reflecting historical processes." His point was that the tradition at Khirbet Qeiyafa was different from the tradition at Gath, on the other side of the valley, and that the two traditions were in conflict. "Our site is a heavily fortified city. We have a city on the border ... It was violently destroyed," Garfinkel said.
OK, I got most of that but thanks for explaining it further. But you might be able to see why people would get in a dither over something that does relate to the Bible in some way.
One theory about Goliath that's highly plausible is that he had pituitary gigantism, thus causing uninhibited growth. It's often caused by a tumor on the pituitary gland that enlarges it and makes it hypersensitive. Brittle bones are another symptom. It's completely possible that a well-placed stone to the head could have delivered a fatal blow if it either hit the pituitary gland or a weak spot of Goliath's skull.
Yup. David kicked his ass!
I think this will come down to people seeing what they want to in the evidence - very much depending what they believed going in. We have two seemingly equally trained experts in archeology in Maeir and Garfinkle, and they can't agree. So, what is a layman in archeology like myself to do? Either one of these fellows would destroy me in a debate, and I don't plan on playing catch-up for the next twenty years. The best I can do is take the evidence handed to me, listen to arguments and "decide" as reasonably as I can. But like most people in the world, I doubt my basic understanding of the universe will be swayed.
Great points. Sorry I had to go to wikipedia for info on this subject but it brings up some interesting questions.
http://creationwiki.org/Goliath
Very nice Alan ....
Garfinkel is right ....
The Bible is a gathering of stories and knowledge for that period , in an attempt to aid others in as many areas of living as possible ....
Healthy living , what not to eat , benefits of helping others , strength and weaknesses , what is and is not a sin , Earths place in the universe and on and on ....
His findings may not really conclude anything certain about David ....
But the relationship to the stories in the Bible and Garfinkel findings are nothing short of monumental ....
Another fun read ....
Thanks again ....
Did I miss a big something here, or is Garfinkel taking a huge leap? A potentially Davidic stronghold opposite a presumed Caananite stronghold of Gath? And this proves David vs. Goliath? And this confirms Solomon's Temple design? Sorry, but I have seen headline grabs before. This seems to be a rusty old pistol, not a smoking gun.
Darrah,
Although I personally do not doubt the possibility of either a Goliath or the propsed accuracy of the military slingers; I find the entire story taxing my credulity. David was a sheepherder's apprentice, not even a full shepard. Nor was he a military slinger. And skilled military slingers had not "stepped forward" before?
We confuse folktales of heroism with reality all the time. People talk, and even write, of Alvin York taking an entire regiment, some 2000 men prisoner. In truth, US Army records indicate 132. An 8 foot giant standing before Saul's army must have seemed like a regiment. But just as York, a relatively untrained soldier, but admittedly great natural marksman, inspired fear in the Germans; perhaps a David could have defeated a Goliath. Or due to knowlege of local terrain, have led a successful raid to destroy Gath, later corrupted to slaying Goliath (Oli of Gath).
One main flaw of Noah and his boat is the distribution of animals on the boat. If such an event actually occurred, we would surely find one place on Earth with every kind of animal. However, that is not the case here.
What about birds? They can't fly for 40 days/nights. How about insects, worms and others? If you apply logic and critical thinking, it doesn't even make sense at all.
Darrah,
Unless I missed someone's comment, Goliath was NOT killed by a little stone to the head. According to the Bible, David cut Goliath's own head off with Goliath's own sword AFTER he knocked him silly with that sling-shot stone to the head. See 1 Samuel 17, specifically verses 48-51. A lot of people who believe the Bible neglect to read it.
@Miko
I read Bible for 14 years before I stop believing it. I remember clearly that what it said in the Bible that the stone actually killed Goliath. Did I read a "lite" version of it? I read it in 2 different versions on 2 different languages.
Did I have a different version of the Bible than everyone else?
1 Samuel 17
King James Version (KJV)
49 And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth.
50 So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David.
51 Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw their champion was dead, they fled.
#4.11 - Wed May 9, 2012 7:21 PM EST
A Flood without flotsam? that be a weird flood, so insects and many birds could as with many fish survive outside the " Ark " so much for a scientific reasoning.
It's historical fact that King James was bi-sexual. The KJV of the bible is a poetic translation (think Shakespeare's era) of books that were selected by a team appointed by pagan Emperor Constantine that would aid in the control of the people inhabiting the Roman Empire. These books were originally written by people who live in what we today call the middle east. So, I ask myself, do I want to live my life in fear of obliteration by a mythical, invisible super being because I didn't live by some rules made up thousands of years ago by middle eastern men and make speeches before meals that sound like bad Elizabethan poetry? Uh, no. I often wonder if people who normally speak like modern day, relatively educated people actually hear how silly they sound when they start spouting off thees and thous like a sixteenth century British poet wanna be's. As for this article itself, it contains a lot of "maybe, possibly and perhaps" (wishful thinking and conjecture) but of course many people will read it as fact. Oh dear.
I'm posting late, but thought I'd point out that it's Mount Ararat, not Mount Arafat. Just in case someone wanted to look this up, and had the incorrect name. There is a "Mount Arafat", but it is not the one mentioned in the Bible.
@Miko about the killing of Goliath. I read a version that stated Goliath was killed by the shot from the sling and then David killed Goliath by cutting off his head. Different versions will read a little bit differently but what I take away from this is that Goliath was probably knocked unconcious or otherwise incapacitated by the sling shot then was beheaded. I think that is what anyone should take away from it and not get so hung up on discrepancies they miss the overall picture. After all, we all know what 2-3 generations of inbreeding will result in so was there one literal Adam and one Eve or were they symbolic of mankind? After Cain killed Abel, how could Cain wonder into the land of Nod if there were no other people besides his immediate family of Adam, Eve, and his recently deceased brother? Whom, did Cain marry anyways? Critics love to split hairs over these types of issues and use them as so called proof the whole bible is false and then there are extreme beleivers that say every word of the bible is literal which I find just as ludicrous.
Oy vay! What's with the meshuginah arguments? What a bunch of schlemiels!
Hi Darrah, nice to see you on-line.
Well, the term "Giant" is a relative term. Shaguil O'Neal or someone his size would certainly be considered a "giant" in ancient times and that may be all they are talking about. A warrior who was physically much larger than the other warriors and a designated "champion" for his army. The challenge to personal combat was very common in the bronze age and many leaders designated their toughest warriors to be their champions when a personal challenge was issued. Goliath was probably such a brute.
Yes, the sling was a venerable weapon from ancient times. In the hands of a professional or skilled user it could be as accurate as a bow and with a comparable effective range. Slings were still being used by the Anglo-Danes at Hastings in 1066, 2,000 years later. That's how effective a weapon it was and it could certainly kill a man.
The sling became obsolete when armor was developed in the 11th-12th century which the slingshot could not penetrate. Shepherds and others in the middle-east still use them to protect their flocks and themselves.
Cast lead slingshots have been recovered that have engraved sayings on them that translate to words like "OUCH!" or "TAKE THAT!" and other humorous insults.
Interesting article Alan, thanks.
Somebody help me here. I've read and re-read the article. I have yet to see how digging up some clay pottery and making assumptions as to its use/function verifies the existence of David or Goliath.
Couldn't these pottery items have been primitive bedroom "privvies"?
Scatalogical blasphemy!! (ROTFLMFAO!)
@the thinker - yes, that is how they made bricks back then. Just had to be careful when it rained. Thats where the phrase getting sh!t on comes from. :)
Firstly, a better term would be "chamber pots" as a "privy" is actually tecnically an entire small building devoted to the purpose.
Secondly, those vessels were typically unadorned rather than highly decorative as the items displayed here are, these are in a style more typical of devotional items.
I know that it's hard to be objective for anyone here, since these claims tie into so many feelings of pride, religion, and nationalism. That being said...
These are great finds. But if you're looking to validate the descriptions in the bible- it can be a self fulfilling prophesy. This can teach us a lot about the people in that time. Biblical interpretation can be taken so many different ways.
Not necessarily taking sides, but let's not jump to conclusions about a united monarchy just yet.
The clay shrine looks like a TV,,, Look on the back to see if it was made in China
Oh! I saw the two holes on the sides of the shrine and thought they were for a rope to carry the bedroom privy out each morning. Everybody knows hold miserable it is to have to get dressed in the middle of the night to relieve themselves.
Our modern shrines are made of porcelain instead of clay and are permanently installed. After a night of heavy partying people get on their knees on pray to it.
Baruch Hashem! You wouldn't overstand, it's a Jewish thang.
Odd thang about those Jewish thangs? -- They call their own foreign policies "Anti-Semitic" against the Jewish faith thang
Anyway, it's the proof that David existed, regardless of some of small details of his Biblical story being correct or not. But there's no proof found, and will never be, due to complete falsehood of the notion that Mohammad ever set his foot in the land of Israel. Nor any other Arab or Muslim did before khalif Omar's conquest. So much to Arab claim to the land of Israel.
Interesting dig. Thanks for the scholarly article.
Jesus said his true followers would walk by faith not by sight. So you will likely never find real proof in archealogical expeditions, because if you did, people would realize the Bible is God's word of truth, and would flock to it for the wrong reasons.
did jesus not show people with miracles time and time again? I can see no" wrong reasons " to become a believer. also, the archaelogical proof is all over the planet; we're finding monuments and temples and in some cases , entire cities made with technology we can't duplicate today. the bible describes the inside of jonah's whale having ribs of shining brass. wake up!! we are a control group. to find one thing that is proof beyond a doubt to the world, changes nothing about what is written, other than making it true.
"Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.' " John 20:29 Jesus showed himself to Thomas so obviously in certain circumstances he will provide proof. Thomas even went so far as to touch the wounds (gross?). But obviously He likes it better when we believe without proof as the verse demonstrates. :P
Faith is valuable, faith helps us do things we might not otherwise believe possible. Blind faith can also be twisted by those in power to make people do what those in power want. As with everything in life, some is good, too much is dangerous.
I always wondered how proving god in the "Material World" would work, when Religion is based on "Faith and the unknown"?
You folks finally make sense. Somebody wrote something centuries after the individual departed and it is beyond reproach. It was written in such generic terms that it applies no matter how one wants to interpret it.
Based on that, I'm guessing that jesus wrote the horoscopes for those that follow astrology - so generic that one could ignore the "birthdate" and find examples of how they used to be Aries and are now a Leo and next week will be Taurus.
Woah woah woah.
That right there is why Bible thumpers annoy the crap out of me.
"... by faith and not by sight..."
You're admitting that Jesus and everything you believe in, is only in your heads. That there is no proof, never will be, and you never expect to see it.
So WHY do you believe what you believe? Because you were ordered to as a child?
Jesus of Nazareth was an actual historical figure. Whether or not he was the "Son of God", or whether there is such a person as a Son of God, or a God for that matter, is a matter of faith/belief, not "scientific proof". It can't be proven the way that Newtonian laws of motion are essentially provable for the observable terrestrial environment, or observable in the way that where I am it is currently 74 degrees on the Farenheit scale is observable by measurement. That's why arguments about faith are basically fruitless, which to me would seem to be the ultimate meaning of "We walk by faith, not by sight." Those who do so do this because they choose to believe. Those who do not have chosen not to believe, or have based their lack of faith upon their observations, in other words based on what they have not seen, or failed to see.
I find it rather humorous that many times people have tried to prove the bible wrong only to be proven wrong themselves.There was a city that was written about in the bible(cant remember the name), said it didnt exist only to be discovered a little while later EXACTLY as the bible described it and right where it said it was located.
Kim
No one has ever doubted that the Old Testament is a history of the ancient Hebrews as written by them (meaning like any ancient history it will have propaganda and exaggerations in it).
What people mean when they say the Bible is "wrong" is that it isn't divinely inspired and it's cosmological claims are false. So if the Bible is accurate about the location of a city that has no bearing on, for example, whether Genesis is true or not. That would be like saying because I'm right about my mom's maiden name therefore I'm going to be right about whatever else I say.
Kim, are you thinking of Nineveh, the ancient capital of Assyria that Jonah was sent to prophecy against??? It was thought to be mythical until expeditions in the 1800's found it's location. It is mentioned numerous times in The WORD.
http://bibleencyclopedia.com/nineveh.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineveh
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Nineveh
Kim M.
Have you been to northern Kentucky's Creation Museum? They show "prehistoric man" using dinosaurs as dray animals. And now they are working on a Noah's Ark Park; I wonder if the unicorn will be inclcluded?
The reason so many sites have proven to be true has much more to do with intrepretation of contemporary surroundings and syntax, and less than divine inspiration. I could claim that Jesus marked only holy sites, despite the fact that the name Jesus was as common in Jewish society as Bob or John Or William is now.
#10.3- Wed May 9, 2012 6:45 PM EST Indeed yes. so may I ask do you know the meaning of the name Jesus?
Believe what?
"Jesus" is a Greek version of the Hebrew name "Yeshua" (Joshua), which means something like "Yahweh (Jehovah) Will Save" or "Yahweh's Salvation". This was quite a common name of the era, as has been noted; Jesus of Nazareth was almost undoubtedly known as "Yeshua bar-Yusef" (Jesus son of Joseph) to distinguish him from several contemporary Nazarenes of the same name, as people generally were then, i.e., Simon bar-Jonah (Simon son of Jonah), known better by his "nickname" Simon Peter (Simon the Rock).
So ?
I feel like laughing when people talk about David slaying the much bigger Goliath with a rock thrown with a sling, being so miraculous. Many of the armies from that time period had soldiers who were given that, as their primary weapon. When Alexander routed the Persians, despite having a lot fewer men, one of his best weapons was his slingers. He made a long ride to his right with his calvalry, with slingers and archers running where the calvalry could hide them. When he saw a gap between the Persian soldiers and the Persion Calvalry, he wheeled his calvalry into the gap, and his archers and slingers severely damaged the much larger Persian calvalry. I'm sure that David did defeated Goliath with a slung stone, but there's nothing miraculous about it. The giant Goliath is believed to have been about 6'3" 280lbs, but he was much bigger than your average man for that time period.
It wasn't physically possible, Goliath even with his thick bone structure, as an important soldier would have been wearing a bronze helmet
Actually Mark the height of Goliath as described in the bible puts him at almost 9 feet tall, but not impossible since Robert Palmer the world tallest man was a little over 9 feet. What makes it impressive about David slaying Goliath is that David was just a mere young boy not a man. He was a shepard not a solider. And yes Jim it was possible, the bible also states he killed a bear which have much thicker bones and skin to go through. Goliath probably didnt have his helmet on and was laughing because he didnt feel threatened by David.
Since there is absolutely no evidence of David ever existing. I don't think he killed anyone. It's a myth.
A sling stone is a VERY deadly weapon. It requires a ton of skill, but is just as deadly as an archer when used in capable hands. Bronze shields have been recovered that have punctures from thrown sling stones.
When people think of slings, most envision a slingshot. This just isn't the case. A leather sling could launch a 100g stone up to 400 meters (roughly 1200 feet!). More commonly a stone would go 100-200 meters, but that is still 300-600 feet. Sling stones would reach 100-150 ft/s in speed. In contrast a bullet from a musket launched at 400-1200 ft/s.
The weight of a musket bullet was approximately 33 grams in weight. Doing some energy calculations peak energy in a civil war era musket bullet is around 2.6 kJ. In contrast a sling peak energy is about 0.13 kJ.
A musket thus delivered about 20x the power. This is still considerable amounts of energy.
I don't think the bible is divine or even very accurate. But ignoring it as irrelevant is foolish. At most it provides a written record of oral traditions and history. It is a cultural testament and has archaeological significance.
I still think the clay shrine is a TV
Look again Jim, it's the "8-track player" on its side, probably fell out of a chariot or Fred and Barney's car.
Darrah, Bush told us that 'god' told him to kill Hussein, so I guess I can tell you that both of them (g & b) are still pretty mean these days, too. I'm just waiting for some booming angry voice from the sky to tell me to shut up. Of course, it might sound like Cheney then I'll know that it was he who told simple little W what to do.
Go visit ground zero ....
And the neighboring fire houses ....
Brit: Thanks. A return to reality.
Brit-5765539
Just think of how many "God told me to" lines we've had over the thousands of yrs. You have psychos throughout this society. Why wouldn't you have psychos then? One of the most psychotic episodes happened when when Abraham was told by God to kill his son Isaac.
Genesis 22:1-12
Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.
Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."
Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you."
Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?"
"Yes, my son?" Abraham replied.
"The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"
Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together.
When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.
"Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
Deuteronomy 12:31(see also Leviticus 20:2-5,Jeremiah 32:35,Ezekiel 20:26,Isaiah 57:4-5)
You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
http://www.rationalchristianity.net/abe_isaac.html
This is exactly why it's so hard to believe in any stories / articles related to the Bible. If it gives people faith, that's great. Some of the faithful will believe anything in the Bible and not question it though. Evidently that's a sign of their faith. I always think about the kids of the faithful. Do they need to believe it or are the kids scared into thinking they'll go to Hell? I was scared into thinking that until I became an adult. Never again.
So was it jesus or allah who directed obama to kill osama? Was the president's deity more omnipotent than the opponent's?
Isn't one of the underlying themes and premises of human history the idea the "my God can beat up your god"?
Blessings to you all regardless of what you believe. The fact of the the matter is that truth is at last being revealed. It is one more trinket of justice to all who died in the name of Christ.
What about justice for all of those innocents, mostly women accused of "witchcraft", who have been heinously tortured and killed throughout the centuries, all in the name of your supposedly loving savior, Jesus Christ?
Darrah, funny that Isaac was not Abraham's only son. Ishmael was the first son, a product of Abraham and Sarah's handmaiden Hagar, which was condone and instructed by God. Though later in the Old Testament he is forgotten and Isaac becomes Abraham's only "begotten son". Growing up in an Evangelical household, this and other glaring Biblical contradictions stood out. Ishmael was supposedly loved and promised by God to do great things, unfortunately Muslims are the only ones that honor him.
So then is it that any Dr Participating in an IVF program as guilty?
Abraham is also said to have survived Isaac's mother Sarah and to have remarried (at age 137!) to a woman named Keturah, by whom he fathered an additional six sons over the next 38 years (Gen. 25).
The results of this poll are utterly disgusting. Having some degree of faith is one matter, but "every word"? Apparently more than half of you people are completely incapable of using reason or discriminating judgment, and acknowledging that things like translation errors and biased reporting (yes, even among the bloody Apostles; they were only human even if Jesus wasn't) exist. You believe the Bible because your parents believe it, because their parents believed it, because their parents believed it, because their parents believed it, because some charming hustler conned them into thinking it was true....or perhaps just plain bought their faith because they were too poor to argue with whatever outrageous thing he said. It has never in all these generations occurred to you to try and use your brains; you have faith specifically because it allows you to be stupid. Please, burn me at the stake right now, so I can stop having to share a planet with you morons.
These F-ing faux "news" style "polls" we are starting to see everywhere are starting to piss me off. HISTORY AND FACT ARE NOT DECIDED BY IGNORANT "MAJORITY" VOTES.
Right, it's an unscientific self-selecting poll ... just an alternate way to voice opinion, and shouldn't be taken as ... um... gospel. I hope I don't present these polls as anything authoritative. When it comes to deciding fun things, such as the top 10 weird science stories or the top holiday gifts, I do use the polls to decide the question. But no harm done there, I think.
Mr Alan Boyle,
What are you doing down here in the trenches? Or should I say bus stop? Think you will regret it.
At any rate, the point I didn't see you touch was the political one. As everyone should be aware there is a wrestling match taking place in Palestine over legitimacy and historically based rights. The zionists are erasing the Palestinians from history and simultaneously seeking to create by myth or fact a historical link to the lands around Jerusalem.
Think you could have included some alternative opinions/interpretations to those of Mr Garfinkel (Phd?). But more than that I think you should have controlled the headline of this article. Question: Was the title of your article decided by the editors at BSNBC or by yourself?
HANDS DOWN the title is what sticks with and shapes the beliefs/opinions of readers as a whole.
Mr Garfinkel's opinions appear to me to be fundamentally an extreme stretch to fit his political needs - no human figures and no pig bones gives us this zionist promoting title:
The above is what matters politcally (and thus effect real living human blood and bones) and not the details you labored over.
Alan Boyle
hehehe
This is just one of the many things I love about you, Alan. Your humor is wicked as hell! lol
He's also a pleasantly great stand up article participant ....
I remember the first post I saw from you Darrah , sticking up for Alan ....
I think your reply to an unnecessarily negative post was something like ,"Not On The Cosmic Log" ....
Really cool of you Darrah ....
And it's clear that Alan has a great sense of humor as well ....
Hope all is well with you ....
Have fun ....
J.P., if you read the article carefully you might have noted that Alan did include a contrasting point of view.
Again showing his characteristic wit, it is the voice of an opposing archeological team which is working the dig at Gath. Apparently the old battles never end.
MikeyMike,
Indeed!, there were other views offered.
My major point was that the BSNBC editor's (or Alan Boyle's?) title for this article was clearly one-sided, political, and in line with the zionist narrative.
Was that word "mainstream" really in italics when Maier wrote it? If so, major burn on Garfinkel! That's about as close as scholars come to calling other scholars raving lunatics.
Yes, as a matter of fact it was boldface italics. ;-)
Just by your photo alone, some of us can tell that you're a downright devil. ;-)
I am in shock that an author actually reads the comments. I think it's cool though. My hat's off to you.
PS - Really interresting article. It didn't change my opinions, but
We all know it was Bill Cosby that built the ARK.
ZooBah... ZooBah... ZooBah,,, Ding, NOAH!
Who is this really? :o) Right................ Am I on Candy Camera? LOL!!!
Some people will get this..... :o)
Jimbo: With a hocus pocus, you're in focus, you're the star today .... Smile!
Lots of things point to the history of the Bible being true. As far as understanding God and his principles and laws we just kid ourselves don't we? The greatness of the creator of the universe and we pea brains know what he intends and what he wants. My anemic attempts at Bible study lead me to one factual conclusion for me and that is to Fear God. I invite you to study from this topic. It says something like, all things begin with the fear of the Lord. May give someone some understanding.
I believe that most of what is written in the bible, is historically true. I'm talking about events, and places, as has been researched and prove by today's technology. But that doesn't mean that parts of the bible have not been exaggerated or embellished. There are many things that have been written throughout history that are accurate and valuable whether they are in the bible or not. Whether they are from other sources, writings, archaeological discoveries etc, that are not part of the bible cannon. There are many books and writings that were not chosen to be included in what we now call the bible, that are valuable historically.
Each one of us will believe whatever we believe.
All due respect to King David, and zero respect tothe burning in hell blind lost zealots.
Love clowns who think you are lost in Eternity for ever. I thought a Soul was free Spirit.
I think the Hindu Vedics are more realistic in what life is about.
AS Gandhi said I like Christ but NOT his Christians.
All I want to know is if Mr Garfinkel can sing Bridge over troubled Water like Art does?
You don't know Garfinkel from Garfunkel? Oy, veh!
ok, it seems really odd to me that we are discussing how Goliath became a giant by a gland problem. Maybe since the bible is the only thing that mentions this we should discuss whether this occured at all. We all want to believe there is more to life than there is. This is a silly discussion. Lets talk about what Jonah ate to stay alive in the whale. Good Grief
Krill?
The Bible also brings a land of giants into play. I could see how one man's size might be due to a medical condition but a whole land affected by the disease? Just one reason not to buy into the Goliath story.
Darrah: Say that a group, due to its advanced agricultural and/or hunting techniques had a diet roughly as high in protein as a current-day American's, while another, nearby group had a protein intake typical of the time and probably similar to current-day North Koreans. Don't modern Americans, or more to the point even modern South Koreans for that matter, appear as a race of giants to North Koreans? That seems certainly more probable than an entire large tribe of people all or nearly all uniformly suffering from a fairly serious metabolic disorder.
Ok Truth,hurts, I thought I was done till I saw yours. If there is a 1 being that created everything, there are some obvious thoughts. It isn't a he or she, it isn't angry or loving, it doesn't want you to send 10 percent to a church, pick em, If the bible was so important, it would have put it in our brains like eating and breathing. It would be so big we can't conceive of it. You need it to be on your level. It is what you were taught, oh yes you were, and it makes you feel better. As James Taylor says.."there's a song that they sing when they take to the highways. A song that they sing when they take to the seas. A song that they sing of THEIR HOME IN THE SKY. Maybe you can believe it if it helps you to sleep, but singing works just fine for me." If it helps you to sleep, I am ok with it. Take care.
Interesting story. As for Goliath, the account described of him was that he was one of three brothers. All Giants or at the least, abormally larger then the average man. Some speculation is that they were the remnant of a tribe which inhabited that region, which had been there before the Israelites entered the land of Canan (Modern Day Israel), from out of Egypt.
I like the part many of us live in peace with fully believing in the Bible. I dis-like the part of all these wars in the past because of religion. Billions of innocent people have died from these wars. I feel fortunate being an American. Where I can sit with four different religions and have a peacefull cup of coffee with them plus others that are not believers. If only our world could do this without judging others.
Great find on your dig.
jesus says to love your enemies and not to kill.
This is garbage! There is no god or anything like that - I know it's sad, but true!
Be HUMAN and USE your IQ and SEE what there is!
99% of the world's problems would be gone in an instant if RELIGION was removed....
Think about it...
#24- Wed May 9, 2012 5:32 PM EST So says Your religion, and you seem exceedingly Fanatical!!
The perpetual problem with "religion" is that "believers" try to foist THEIR BELIEFS on others in this world.
Throughout history, it is the conflict between "belief systems" or "religions" that have produced great wars and destroyed countless people....all because one group wants to impose their beliefs on another. IT IS EVIL AND OBSCENE TO DO THIS....
Someone mention my Name "King David" ? heyyyy thats my Stuff their uncovering, that I left there centuries ago,, I want it back too, its mine, so I can post them on this thing they have now called E-Bay,, I need some monies to survive in this messed up world you all created,, it was so much easier back in my time, when I was KING,, anyway, send me my stuff back, David the King !!!