Pros and cons in the bee debate

Honeybees may be victims of widely used insecticides. NBC's Anne Thompson reports.




Is a widely used pesticide to blame for making bees disappear? The debate over a class of chemicals known as neonicotinoids was the focus of a spot on NBC's "Nightly News" tonight, and NBC News' Anne Thompson has supplemented her TV report with a couple of Web-only videos presenting the pro and con arguments on neonicotinoids.

There's little question that pesticides play a role in the malady known as colony collapse disorder, in which whole colonies of honeybees leave their hives abruptly and never return. Most experts would say pesticides are among a host of bee-debilitating factors that also include viruses, mites and fungi. However, in recent months a number of studies have highlighted neonicotinoids as a particularly worrisome threat to bees.


So far, the Environmental Protection Agency has not acknowledged a link between colony collapse disorder and the reported problems with neonicotinoids. The chemicals are attractive to farmers, particularly for corn crops, because they are much more toxic to insects than they are to mammals. The stuff is sprayed on corn seeds as well as plants in the field.

One of the bonus videos is an interview with Steve Ellis, owner of the Old Mill Honey Company in Minnesota. "The quantity of neonicotinoid systemic insecticides that are being used in the country is mind-boggling," he says. Ellis is one of the backers of a petition campaign calling on the EPA to suspend further use of a type of neonicotinoid known as clothianidin.

In the other video, David Fischer, chief ecotoxicologist for Bayer CropScience, contends that neonicotinoids don't kill off bee colonies as long as they're used properly. He contends that in the studies linking the chemicals to colony collapse disorder, the bees were exposed to "unrealistically high levels" of the chemicals. Bayer CropScience markets clothianidin in brand-name pesticides that include Poncho and Prosper.

Watch the three videos, then feel free to weigh in with your vote and/or your comments.

Steve Ellis of the Old Mill Honey Company explains how pollinators are an essential piece of the fabric for feeding the United States and the loss of bees is posing an unprecedented threat.

David Fischer of Bayer CropScience claims that neonicotonoids, a relatively new class of insectoids, are not to blame for the recent collapses in bee colonies.

More about the bee debate:


Alan Boyle is msnbc.com's science editor. Connect with the Cosmic Logcommunity by "liking" the log's Facebook page, following @b0yle on Twitter and adding the Cosmic Log page to your Google+ presence. You can also check out "The Case for Pluto," my book about the controversial dwarf planet and the search for new worlds.

Discuss this post

Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3

Farmers are in a tough corner on this one a bit ....

Clothianidin is the one of the safest systemic insecticides being used today ....

Just not very safe for some beneficial insects ....

Farmers should just back off of their doses and do not apply it or plant the coated seed in windy type weather ....

One huge problem that will arise soon will be the massive amounts of systemic insecticides being applied by yard men and pest control operators in the southeast , battling their new invasive white fly ....

These somewhat newly arrived white fly , attack many plant species in the southeast so badly , that it is a real damaging epidemic without question ....

The problem with the treatment of this white fly , is the pesticide application training for the yard care workers ....

The southeast will see the same bee problem there because of it as well ....

Thanks Alan Boyle ....

I hope everything Bee good with you .... "LOL"

  • 5 votes
Reply#1 - Thu May 10, 2012 10:47 PM EDT

Bees are hugely important to the cross-pollination of many types of plants. Anything that has this much impact on bee populations must be taken very seriously. Reassurances from the pesticide manufacturer that the stuff will not hurt the bees if used at proper concentrations just does not cut it for me. There needs to be a truly independent investigation of what this class of pesticides is doing to the bees and a resolution to the problem found. If this resolution involves limiting the use of these pesticides to only certain licensed professionals to ensure that excess concentrations are not used, then so be it. We can not afford to allow this problem to go unchecked, wiping out a large portion of the bee population. The consequences to crops as well as many other plants is too great to simply let this go with unsupported assurance from the manufacturer.

  • 8 votes
#1.1 - Fri May 11, 2012 12:18 AM EDT

The worst abusers of insecticides are not farmers or "yardmen" (professional gardeners). It is homeowners. They see a bug and run down to the store for an insecticide. Directions say two tablespoons per gallon - goldurnit, four tablespoons must be twice as good.

They make a gallon and spray, never realizing that they're killing EVERYTHING - the nasty bug they saw AND the beneficials. They only needed a half-gallon, so they pour the rest in the gutter and into a waterway. Over time what will result is a super bug that is immune to the insecticide.

Farmers are in something of a no-win situation. They have to protect their seeds. One major crop failure and it will become blindingly clear that the planet has far exceeded its carrying capacity. Starvation will be the order of the day.

Then, we must never forget the wonderful and altruistic chemical producers. Listening to the jerk at Bayer makes you want to puke. No, neonicotinoids are not safe. They are designed to kill. That is what they do. Consider that we are linked via DNA to ALL living things, we should be concerned for our own health. It's not enough that our friends at Monsanto, Bayer, and others are killing insects, they're killing us. Don't be naive.

Finally, the same fine people who bring us "better dying through chemistry" continue with their Frankenstinian work with genetically modified organisms. Oh yeah, that's safe too. No matter that they've already produced food crops that kill insects. Are you eating corn or an insecticide? That's not a joke.

And then we get the clown at 5.2 who deflects with the incredibly stupid Soros meme. Fact is, regulation is an absolute imperative, unless of course, corporate profits are more important than your life.

Vote G.O.P. - Suicide by Republican

  • 6 votes
#1.2 - Fri May 11, 2012 6:23 AM EDT

I have seen the bee collapse firsthand. My parents have a massive crabapple tree in their front yard that blooms with the sweetest smelling pink flowers every spring. We live in the Northeast. Every spring as a little girl, I would climb into the tree, and sit amongst the branches, watching the bees flying about the blossoms and zipping in and out of the tree. The whole tree was full of honey bees, and bumble bees. The tree was litterally buzzing with bees. For the past ten years or so, I have crawled up into those branches - and hear nothing. The occassional rare honey bee and several bumble bees may come and go - but no longer is it a buzzing tree with thousands of honey bees. The change is shocking. The argument about fungal and insecticidal - I have no doubt in my mind that the insecticide weakens the bees enough - if it doesnt outright kill them, to expose the hives to opportunistic attack to viruses and fungus, just like disease in humans makes us more prone to opportunistic bacterial and viral, AND fungal - infections.

  • 5 votes
#1.3 - Fri May 11, 2012 8:43 AM EDT

Let us distinguish between Colony Collapse Disorder and the general decrease in pollinators. The varroa mite, in particular is a pest that weakens the bees and is a vector for viruses, and has made it difficult for feral colonies to survive. The National Academy of Science found that there is a decrease in all pollinators, for reasons unknown. Honeybees, as social insects whose members often switch from one hive to another, are particularly vulnerable to the spread of pests and diseases.

Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) is something else: the sudden death of many colonies with strange phenomena observed in the remaining hives. What you were noticing is the general problem with honeybees, not CCD.

  • 1 vote
#1.4 - Fri May 11, 2012 10:15 AM EDT

Here's a flip side of the story:

Years ago a Democratic Senator named Proxmire used to get his face on TV by giving out bogus "Golden Fleece Awards" that supposedly highlighted out-of-control government spending. But, in fact, the "awards" highlighted only that Proxmire either did not or mis-represented the processes involved. The most famous example, still discussed today, was the issue of the $600 toilet seats. These were a lot of eight replacement toilet seats for the P-3 Orion, a long-duration ASW aircraft, for a total of $4,800. The seats themselves were only $12 each and made of a special plastic. The rest of the $4,800 was for MilSpec certification of the toilet seats --- a federal requirement for all military equipment. So, contractors are allowed to add the cost of MilSpec certs to any bid or else they would never offer any small lots or replacement parts because it would take a real idiot to sell parts to the Navy for $72 and then eat the $4,728 reguired for certification. This practice essentially halted many military purchases of small parts for years. And it cost the government billions of dollars in the process. The price of those same seats today would be over $80,000 because of Proxmire.

But another of Proxmire's stupid "awards" went to the National Instituted of Science for a series of small grants (all less than $10,000) to study diseases and parasites in European honeybees. He contended that studying AMERICAN honeybees might be okay, but not EUROPEAN bees, ignoring the fact that European honeybees, brought over by the original colonists, pollinate over 40% of all out crops. NIS withdrew the grants and all federal funding for any research regarding honeybees was killed. Careers of acadermic apiologists were destroyed. All the researchers fled the field despite its importance, except for a small handful of stawlart souls. The field is only just now regovering after decades of neglect and lost institutional knowledge.

But it was a very popular political ploy ---- unless you were a European honeybee.

Ambrose Bierce described "democracy" as "four wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." I guess that is the reason the Founding Fathers' greatest fear was that democrancy would come in the back door to this country. The bee issue is a serious example of how majority "opinion" can be deadly wrong.

  • 4 votes
#1.5 - Fri May 11, 2012 12:27 PM EDT
Reply

Ben, you sound pretty knowledgeable about this issue ... thanks as always for weighing in. My daughter happens to be an bee researcher who just got her master's degree and is going on for her Ph.D., so this issue is close to my heart. Bee well, my friend ;-)

  • 5 votes
Reply#2 - Thu May 10, 2012 10:55 PM EDT

Well Alan ....

Your daughter will have a never ending feeling of a great connection to our wondrous adventurous living world ....

Her studies in areas such as this will always entertain her ....

She could find herself sitting at a bus bench looking around with a friend and say ....

Hey , there's a Bombus from the Apidae family .... "LOL"

Of course it would just be another Hymenoptera .... "LOL"

Always fun Alan ....

  • 3 votes
#2.1 - Thu May 10, 2012 11:21 PM EDT

This is just a symptom of our ever-increasing desire for MORE ... we need more land to raise crops and animals to feed our ever increasing population. We are cutting down the Amazon rainforest at an astounding rate and digging up every ounce of coal and oil we can find. We over use air conditioning in the summer and make our homes toasty hot in winter. As long as we are able to bask in luxurious comfort and we have our big mini-vans to take us to "all you can eat" diners, we don't care about the impact on the planet.

  • 3 votes
#2.2 - Fri May 11, 2012 8:46 AM EDT
Reply

Mr. Ellis is right. The EPA needs to pay attention and suspend the pesticide use. It shouldn't take a scientist to figure it out. There has to be a reason for the collapse of honeybee colonies. What else could it be but the pesticide?

David Fischer, chief ecotoxicologist for Bayer CropScience, contends that neonicotinoids don't kill off bee colonies as long as they're used properly.

Of course an expert for Bayer CropScience would say that. How dangerous to our ecosystem for anyone to believe him.

It's just another way that big companies make money. They really don't care about the environment. What a shame.

  • 7 votes
Reply#3 - Thu May 10, 2012 11:04 PM EDT

It's really safe Darrah ....

It's just the farmers seeding in the wind with little consideration of the care needed when doing so ....

Rates of insecticides probably could also be reduced some ....

Farmers need to take a class on the effects of their seeding practices ....

Anyway , good to see you ....

  • 3 votes
#3.1 - Thu May 10, 2012 11:26 PM EDT

Of course we can always trust the farmers to use the pesticide correctly.

  • 4 votes
#3.2 - Fri May 11, 2012 12:21 AM EDT

Many European countries have either banned or strictly limited its use some time ago. They tend to address these things quicker than we do. Some might suggest that they over react but I think it is more a case of erring on the side of caution. Their research has them completely convinced.

As far as farmers being more careful about planting on windy days, that's just nice wishful thinking. In some parts of the country it is always windy. One would also think that instead of spending so much effort trying to deny problems, Bayer should be developing coatings that don't come off, and it probably shouldn't be used in other treatment forms like aerial or typical spraying. The coated seeds is just one aspect that even the European research didn't anticipate, but have since discovered.

This is nothing to be taking chances on. Without bees we are in serious trouble. This stuff has been linked for a long time already and lobbying has kept it from being restricted. Each season we delay getting a handle on this we may be very well getting closer and closer to a disaster. If the Europeans can react, why can't we?

Farmers are in a bind, it isn't easy to make decisions that potentially put their crops at risk, and being able to balance that risk with the potential risk of the harm done is even harder when they get conflicting information. The stuff is effective so they want to believe it's safe. Large scale farming can't wait a few days for weather conditions to be perfect. If it's "acceptable", they will be out in the fields.

DDT was a miracle chemical, that worked very well, but later we learned its downsides. Large scale farming is a pretty scary business and it is highly dependent on numerous chemicals. A failed crop is enormously expensive, so there is a tendency to take a "more is better" approach. It is very difficult if not impossible to regulate "proper" use. Farmers are always trying to control their cost so they would rather use chemicals in the "just enough" quantities, but that isn't easy to balance when the downside to not enough is devastating. It shouldn't come as a surprise that chemical designed to kill living creatures, might be dangerous. When a pesticide works against a wide variety of pests, you have to bet that there will be unintended victims. There probably isn't a truly good solution to this issue, but the long term costs could be devastating when we are more focused on the immediate return.

  • 3 votes
#3.3 - Fri May 11, 2012 4:12 AM EDT

Have to jump in here, bigben you are a more than a little misinformed about this issue. It is the SEED that is coated and the "wind" that causes the cloud of chemicals is from the delivery system of the planter. Air delivers the seed to each row on some models bouncing the seed down plastic tubes to each row, and if any farmer waited for the wind not to blow on the great plains they would work two days a year. Have a good one.

  • 2 votes
#3.4 - Fri May 11, 2012 8:09 AM EDT

stonepipe ....

The farmers could be more respectful though , to the life style or habits of the honey bee ....

The video shows the farmer seeding in the day time , kicking up plenty of dust or being followed by a huge dust cloud , which could contain and disperse the insecticide through drifting with the wind , in the daytime , when bees are out foraging ....

They should simply seed with this insecticide coated seed , in the early evening ,when the bees are hanging out at home with there budbees ...."LOL"

  • 2 votes
#3.5 - Sat May 12, 2012 12:24 AM EDT
Reply

Is this the same corn that is genetically engineered? Yes, we have to save that corn by all means, even if it use helps kill off all the bees.

  • 3 votes
Reply#4 - Thu May 10, 2012 11:40 PM EDT

Please,you are genetically engineered! So what! In a second thought,maybe genetic engineering is not so good given the results with you!

  • 1 vote
#4.1 - Fri May 11, 2012 2:29 AM EDT
Reply

Hey bees, come on over to my old farm. We are not using pesticides or treated seeds. We have lots of clover (red & white), blackberries, blueberries, black rasp, goldenrod, wingstem, ironweed, buckwheat and lots of other stuff you can gather pollen from.

I've noticed a few more bees around my place the last few years but not nearly as many as I remember from when I was a kid in the 1970's. It was common to get stung by bees while walking thru a lawn with clover growing in it if you were in bare feet.

If we don't take care of the earth, it won't take care of us.

  • 3 votes
Reply#5 - Thu May 10, 2012 11:59 PM EDT

Would you like to join my reformist movement?

I allow any informative discussion among bloggers

concerning modern problems. Although massive

bee extinctions are not of these topics as of now,

I would like to get some formal discussion going.

leadourgeneration(.)blogpost(.)com

    #5.1 - Fri May 11, 2012 1:14 AM EDT

    Complain: Bet a left nut you are sponsored by some uber left leaning nutbags like Soros!

      #5.2 - Fri May 11, 2012 2:30 AM EDT

      mas098

      And I would bet your left nut that you're a Murdoch worshiper.

      Just like not all insecticides are alike, neither are money wielding activists... you must measure and consider their toxicity! Murdoch might be compared to DDT... toxic, won't go away, seriously needs to be banned or at least highly regulated... at least put a fact check against everything he's involved in.

      Great article, Allen. We should never rest on the laurels of a pre-defined test when experience, factual clues, and gut instincts tell us something different. I'm not one to overreact, but it certainly seems likely that if larger doses kill bees then small doses could weaken them or otherwise make them more vulnerable to diseases and parasites.

      Yes, I believe Bayer puts a great deal of effort in support of pollinators. But, just as with drug companies focused on human issues, sometimes researchers get locked into looking at side effects too narrowly... then you get a pill to counter the pill that counters the pill that treats the condition and you really do not know what's happening in the long term.

      • 1 vote
      #5.3 - Fri May 11, 2012 6:49 AM EDT

      mas098 Right WIng Safety testing for regulatory controls:

      1.) 2008 financial meltdown -no regulation required

      2.) Global starvation - self regulation might be indicated.

      3.) Hurricane Katrina glub glub glub no regulation required

      • 1 vote
      #5.4 - Fri May 11, 2012 8:46 AM EDT
      Reply

      well, i just hope they don't debate the issue up until the last surviving bee. france has banned the use of neonicotinoids quite some time ago...but of course in the USA $ for the chemco's is always the overriding factor. even if this crap were banned immediately, it has a very long life in the soil--takes a real long time to dissapate.

      • 6 votes
      Reply#6 - Fri May 11, 2012 12:05 AM EDT

      Unfortunately, we repress the long term outlook due to the anxiety it heaps on us.

      • 2 votes
      #6.1 - Fri May 11, 2012 1:15 AM EDT

      The EU outlawed ATRAZINE about a decade ago. Due to connection to changing male frogs into female frogs and causing human birth defects, even in trace amounts... see http://www.nrdc.org/health/atrazine/

      The USA and the chemco's are still using it to help grow the corn for ETHANOL and EXPORT for stock feed...

      In January 2009, a Government Accountability Office report said that the E.P.A.’s system for assessing toxic chemicals was broken, and that the agency often failed to gather adequate information on whether chemicals posed health risks.

      Meanwhile the Atrazine contaminated water tables are spreading across the USA and many locations are now sueing the manufacture of Atrazine... see http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/us/23water.html?pagewanted=all

      • 3 votes
      #6.2 - Fri May 11, 2012 4:27 AM EDT

      Complain - you are so right - the only time I can think of when a society has taken the long term into account was 1930s Germany with the Jews. In other words mankind has never looked long term to any positive end.

      • 1 vote
      #6.3 - Fri May 11, 2012 8:48 AM EDT
      Reply

      Commonly used on dogs and cats as a pesticide. It is extremely persistent in the environment. If it is in the water that bees use, they are dead bugs in no time.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#7 - Fri May 11, 2012 12:07 AM EDT

      There is a documentary film called the Silence of the Bees that makes it pretty clear. Watching the bees staggering around in disorientation on the sunflowers whose seeds had been coated in neonicotinoids prior to planting was enough to make me cry. After France banned the used of this insecticide they noticed an improvement in the health of their bee colonies.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#8 - Fri May 11, 2012 12:20 AM EDT

      There's another documentary called "Nicotine Bees" which also highlights the problem. Here's a link to a trailer for it...

      http://pierreterre.com/video/nicotine-bees-trailer

      • 1 vote
      #8.1 - Fri May 11, 2012 3:48 PM EDT
      Reply

      We have polluted and poisoned this Earth almost to the point of no return. Of course Bayer company, like Monsanto and the other purveyors of death, will tell you neonicotinoids are safe, because all they care about are profits. Just as the tobacco industry found its own shill scientists to lie about the safeness of their product, so do the makers of pesticides. Corporations rule the world today, and they're going to kill us all in the name of profit.

      • 5 votes
      Reply#9 - Fri May 11, 2012 12:21 AM EDT

      Fortunately, the profit motive is a weak motive.

      They say that land has the weakest profit margin while stocks possess the highest.

      However, stocks are slips of paper, and land is used to grow food...

      What is REALLY more profitable?

      • 2 votes
      #9.1 - Fri May 11, 2012 1:18 AM EDT

      In the near future ,all these kids graduating college with $35,000 in loans will be wishing they had got a degree in Ag science! The money in the future is not oil but land and water rights!

      • 1 vote
      #9.2 - Fri May 11, 2012 2:33 AM EDT

      Land doesnt matter if you can't purchase the seeds to grow the product. Didnt you know they engineer seeds genetically, then patent it, and if your farm is down wind and gets some of that pollen or seed on it you can be sued and have your farm shut down? Its a fact.

      No, the future is in finding a new habitable planet where stupid ass self destructive greedy troglodytes (that call themselves humans) don't presently live.

      • 3 votes
      #9.3 - Fri May 11, 2012 5:14 AM EDT
      Reply

      Two years ago cel phones were the cause of bee colony collapse. Last year it was Israeli acute paralisys virus. It seems that this year it's neonicotinoid insecticide. I wonder what it will be next year. How thoughtless of me, I neglected the Asian varroa mite.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#10 - Fri May 11, 2012 12:22 AM EDT

      What exactly is your point? Are we too simple-minded to digest the possibility that there are multiple factors impacting bee colony health? It would be naive at best to assume that there is one and only one cause of this calamity. It seems entirely plausible that all of the factors you listed play their own role in this complex catastrophe. I'm sorry if that is not tied up in a neat enough bow for you, but reality is seldom simple.

      • 1 vote
      #10.1 - Fri May 11, 2012 10:13 AM EDT

      You have stock in Bayer or it's parent company?

      • 1 vote
      #10.2 - Sat May 12, 2012 6:30 PM EDT
      Reply

      Monsanto just bought Beelogics, the leading bee research firm. Now Monsanto gets to control the flow of information about the collapse of the bee population. Monsanto's evil has no end. What was the infamous quote..."Those who control the food control the people".

      • 4 votes
      Reply#11 - Fri May 11, 2012 12:35 AM EDT

      Unless Monsanto has developed self pollinating crops, they are probably one of the most concerned parties about CCD. Are they hiding the problem and riding the wave of cash until it ends... or maybe they are trying to figure out the problem? Hard to say... it could be spun either way.

      • 1 vote
      #11.1 - Fri May 11, 2012 3:47 AM EDT
      Reply
      Comment author avatarJulie Tringalevia Facebook

      Pesticides were ruled out in the beginning of the bee collapses about five years ago.

      Somewhere inbetween the original determination and now is the truth.

      Bottomline is that if the bees don't survive this year, the west-coast food supply might be toast. Last I heard, California was dependent on bees furnished by Australia for pollenation. There were a couple of bee suppliers in the state of California who were going to hang in another year, but I haven't heard if they still exist.

      There isn't any more time to debate this topic. Bees are important folks.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#12 - Fri May 11, 2012 1:01 AM EDT

      Perhaps we need an aversive incentive to reinforcement the care of bees (id est famine)

      • 1 vote
      #12.1 - Fri May 11, 2012 1:19 AM EDT

      Just forget it, they are sheep, they don't get it. The problem and the answer can be under thier noses and they still won't see it. Bees are as important as water and sunshine, thats a fact. Also a fact is that the root of this problem has been and is still being covered up. Sociopaths have no care about the future, they only care about money in their pocket now, me, now, more, me now.. That's what big business is all about. Moral hazard will kill us.

      • 3 votes
      #12.2 - Fri May 11, 2012 5:06 AM EDT
      Reply

      HMMM,

      You can't use GMO products or people complain.

      You can't use pesticides or people complain.

      You can't use preservatives or people complain.

      When you can't sustain 7 Billion people you KNOW that they will complain.

      Every water head on the planet, usually religious, yak and gripe but never offer any solutions. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

      Once the 7 Billion start to go hungry I bet ya they will start loving GMO Soybeans topped on Pink Slime with a side of dog an cat meat.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#13 - Fri May 11, 2012 1:50 AM EDT

      And asking for seconds! The PETA people will start eating themselves! Oh,that's right,they already do! Got to love those lebanese!

        #13.1 - Fri May 11, 2012 2:39 AM EDT

        What 3rd world country are you living in? We don't eat dog's or cats here. But, if you don't fix the proven issue this pesticide has on bee's we might someday be doing just that. That is what all this is about, exactly the point. Hope that answers your rant there.

        • 1 vote
        #13.2 - Fri May 11, 2012 5:02 AM EDT

        I have a rice farm in Thailand, we use little fertilizer(6+acre 600+lb) and need ZERO pesticides. The families in my area have been doing this for 5+thousand years. We produce about 1,000+lb/acre paddy rice (jasmine), annually. Last year the rice heads were almost 6' tall and longer than your hand...

        The local farmers watch the growth of fish and crabs in the paddy waters. Which eat the insect and pest lava, and keep them below the levels requiring pesticides. These are also used for supplemental food and sauces, for many Thai foods. The rice seed for this years crop was last years harvest seed. The crop is limited to ONCE a year, due to salty ground water (NO Irrigation available), and rain-fall patterns...

        Unlike the central Thai farmers who use GMO seeds, fertilizers, insecticides, irrigation canals, and have large insect problems. Because they have decimated the natural insect controls and polluted their water tables. They can grow 3 crops of feed rice or 2 jasmine, a year but their chemical and seed expenses eat over 1/3 of their crop proceeds. You can visit their farms and there are almost zero crabs or small fish in their paddy water...

        I grew-up on a 1,000+acre farm in Southside VA. IMO - GMO seeds and becoming dependent on fertilizers & insecticide's will DOOM the long-term viability of a farm...

        Many aquifers in the USA are now polluted with Artizine/increasing salt levels and DECREASING in their available water levels...

        Hannibalektr,

        Nothing wrong with a well prepared; cat, dog, a young jack, monkey, snake, etc. IMO - Black dog taste better...

        • 3 votes
        #13.3 - Fri May 11, 2012 5:38 AM EDT
        Reply

        Kids,if you are up and reading this,drop business,english lit,political science as degree wishes! Go to a great agrilcultural univeristy like Taxas A&M or any of the colleges in the SEC.The high paying jobs of tomorrow will be in Ag science and purchasing and building a portfolio of water rights in the west,not stocks and bonds!Good luck! You will need it!

          Reply#14 - Fri May 11, 2012 2:37 AM EDT

          Lessee, neonicotinoids were introduced in the 1980's and 90's, and first there's a downturn in the population of wild bees, and then CCD appears among domesticated bees...

          Any cause-and-effect theoreticians here?

          This one looks to me like déjà vu, having watched the effects of DDT on hawk and eagle populations in the 1960's and seeing how they've rebounded now to the point our national bird is now off the Endangered Species Act...

          And the corporate shills were singing the same song back then...

          • 3 votes
          Reply#15 - Fri May 11, 2012 3:20 AM EDT

          Perhaps the colony collapse disorder also has something to do with shipping these bees and hives all over the country. Maybe they get lost because they no longer know how to return to their hives that are moved around every couple of weeks or so. I've seen hummingbirds return to the same tree where for several years there was a feeder. The feeder was removed, yet the following season the hummingbirds still gathered around the tree for a time before moving on. This was one of several trees in the area, but only the one had a feeder on it, and it was the only tree they kept visiting the year after the removal of the feeder. As humans, I think we underestimate the intelligence/memory in our pollinators. While hummingbirds have a significantly larger range than bees, physically moving bees and their hives around on trucks likely disrupts their ability to find their relocated hive. Perhaps they leave to create new hives. Since there hasn't been much evidence of finding dead bees, the new hive scenario might be plausible.

          • 1 vote
          Reply#16 - Fri May 11, 2012 3:34 AM EDT

          They've been moving bee's like this for centuries.

          You must be a troll.

          Trolllallala.. la.... la la la..... trollololoa ha ha ha....

          • 1 vote
          #16.1 - Fri May 11, 2012 4:53 AM EDT

          Bees' sense of geography and position is not dependant on recognizing "landmarks" or familiar items or locations that they might return to. The worker bees center on the hive location and the queen they are loyal to and move from there. If they find a good source of pollen they return to the hive and do a little "dance" for the other bees to indicate the location of the food source. This dance includes a very unique wiggle-waggle walk which indicates by it's orientation what direction the food is and by the length of the walk, how far away the food is. Again, these cues to the other bees are based on where the hive is at that moment and not on things like, "The house with the red awning often has a full bird feeder" which is the type of cue a hummingbird would use and remember. Therefore, moving a full hive to a totally new location, perhaps even all the way across the country, does not "confuse" the bees. They just start the search over again from their new position. Could moving a hive possibly leave behind a staggler or ten? Sure. But that's not what causes CCD.

          • 1 vote
          #16.2 - Fri May 11, 2012 4:03 PM EDT

          @Hannibalektr... Don't be such a tool, you don't even know what forum trolls are. Your ignorance is clear when you say "They've been moving bee's like this for centuries." Really?

          @MikeyMike... At least your response was well thought out in comparison to Hanniblah. Hummingbirds v's bee behavior is very different, however, I was only presenting a possibility (I guess the word "Perhaps", didn't give that clue). So far, no one has determined what actually causes CCD. So you can't rule out shipping the hives all over the country.

            #16.3 - Sun May 13, 2012 12:51 AM EDT
            Reply

            Here we go again, big business risking our food chain balance just for a buck. It's time to take control of these phuckers and put them in their place.

            Some things are more important than money, even though sociopaths that run these companies couldn't possibly understand this, we need to regulate this before it's too late.

            It's been proven in Europe, don't believe the political lies anymore. You want to let them steal our tax dollars to pay haliburton to run fake water and deliveries ina bllshi war? pay off banks for ripping us off? pay out c-lvl execs for firing off their highest earning workers? tear the heart out of pension plans, and destroy unions, etc, etc, thats one thing, don't let them move food on the same list as solid financial stability. "We must make a stand now, or there will be nobody left to go to da choppa".

            • 1 vote
            Reply#17 - Fri May 11, 2012 4:47 AM EDT

            Spray pesticides. Kill bad bugs. Unfortunately ecological systems (even man-made ones) aren't that simple. These aren't just insecticides but arthropodicides. They don't distinguish between beneficial and harmful insects (or spiders). For example your average no-till corn field contains about 16 wolf spiders per square meter (before it is sprayed to death for insects). These wolf spiders collectively consume about 250,000-500,000 insects per week per acre (variation is dependent on the species composition of these spiders). None of these spiders ever eats a single kernal of corn and subsidizes the farmer's insecticide budget. Oh yeah, these insecticides aren't too great on bees or predaceous beetles either. So why are they killing the very animals that offer free pest-control? Ignorance (farmer) and propaganda (insecticide industry). There are other cheaper and far more environmentally sound practices. Why aren't we doing these? The simple answer is that the ag industry can't make money from them.

            • 4 votes
            Reply#18 - Fri May 11, 2012 5:32 AM EDT

            and because most people are afraid of spiders. They don't see them as beneficial and foolishly would be just as glad to see them dead as well.

            • 1 vote
            #18.1 - Fri May 11, 2012 4:09 PM EDT
            Reply

            Buy local and buy small. Spending a little more on food takes big agribusiness out of it. They think they're feeding the world, but the stuff they put in their plants is probably killing us all a little quicker. The french knew years ago about the neonicitinoids, and took them out. Suddenly the colonies came back. It's simple

            • 2 votes
            Reply#19 - Fri May 11, 2012 5:55 AM EDT

            Another simpleton that looks at issues as though they were independent. Sure countries like france and the US and other exporters of food grains could stop using chemicals. Now what you export less to keep the price stable in your country. You think the starving people will not overrun your borders and kill you to take your food. Your other option is to keep exporting and the price rises for everyone. Sure your can say "spend a little more" but it only works that way when you have the "more" to spend. What will really happen is that the governments will tax anyone with "more" and give it to the poor via food stamps or whatever. Now you are paying a LOT more since you are paying yours and your neighbors increase.

            The only reason it appears to work for france is they produce enough for their needs and they are tiny in the world market for corn exports.

            • 1 vote
            #19.1 - Fri May 11, 2012 6:38 AM EDT
            Reply

            Take the pesticide OFF the market immediately. Do not listen to any "experts" from the supplier, they get paid big dough to lie and will do it without second thought.

            • 2 votes
            Reply#20 - Fri May 11, 2012 7:07 AM EDT
            Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3
            You're in Easy Mode. If you prefer, you can use XHTML Mode instead.
            As a new user, you may notice a few temporary content restrictions. Click here for more info.