Feds file lawsuit to get tyrannosaur skeleton sent back to Mongolia

U.S. Attorney's Office

This photo, attached as an exhibit to the complaint filed by federal attorneys, shows the tyrannosaur skeleton that has stirred up an international legal dispute.


Federal attorneys today filed a civil lawsuit that seeks to wrest a tyrannosaur skeleton valued at more than $1 million away from its sellers and return it to the Mongolian government.

The skeleton was sold at a New York auction last month for $1.05 million to an unidentified buyer, even though a federal district judge in Texas issued a restraining order to hold up the sale. The auction house behind the offering, Texas-based Heritage Auctions, made the sale contingent on the outcome of Mongolia's court challenge — and since then, the skeleton has been held in legal limbo.

Earlier this month, a panel of paleontologists declared that the skeleton represented a Tyrannosaurus bataar, also known as a Tarbosaurus bataar, which was probably smuggled out of Mongolia sometime in the past 15 years or so. Today's complaint, filed by the U.S. attorney for Manhattan in New York federal district court, follows up on that determination and lays out the authorities' version of a tangled tyrannosaur tale.


"The skeletal remains of this dinosaur are of tremendous cultural and historical significance to the people of Mongolia, and provide a connection to the country's prehistoric past," Manhattan U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara said in a statement. "When the skeleton was allegedly looted, a piece of the country's natural history was stolen with it, and we look forward to returning it to its rightful place."

Mongolia has had laws on the books forbidding the export of dinosaur fossils since 1924. The complaint says the nearly complete skeleton was brought into the United States illegally, and thus should be forfeited by the sellers and returned to Mongolia.

James Hayes, a special agent-in-charge for the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement's Homeland Security Investigations, said the complaint alleges that "criminal smugglers misrepresented this fossil to customs officials."

When the skeleton was imported into the United States from Britain in 2010, the country of origin was listed as Britain — even though, according to the paleontologists, nearly complete tyrannosaur skeletons of this type have been found only in Mongolia. The experts cited a dozen features of the bones, as well as their light color and even the dirt stuck in the cracks in the fossils, as characteristic of Tyrannosaurus bataar rather than the larger T. rex or other members of the tyrannosaur tribe.

Federal attorneys said that the importers set the skeleton's value at $15,000, but that a value of $950,000 to $1.5 million was listed in this year's auction catalog. They also said the 8-foot-tall (2.4-meter-tall), 24-foot-long (7.3-meter-long) skeleton was incorrectly listed on customs forms as consisting of assorted fossilized reptiles and skulls.

The complaint names Florida Fossils as the ultimate consignee for the imported goods, and notes that the company was owned at the time of importation by Eric Prokopi. The skeleton was shipped from Florida to Texas, and then on to New York in preparation for the May 20 sale. Soon after word spread that a million-dollar tyrannosaur was coming up for auction, representatives of the Mongolian government became interested and sought unsuccessfully to stop the sale.

The dinosaur skeleton is currently in the custody of Cadogan Tate Fine Art in Sunnyside, N.Y. In the weeks since the controversial sale took place, the auction house has let paleontologists and representatives of the Mongolian government examine the fossil.

"I thank and applaud the United States Attorney's office in this action to recover the Tyrannosaurus bataar, an important piece of the cultural heritage of the Mongolian people," Mongolian President Tsakhia Elbegdorj was quoted as saying in the U.S. government's news release about the case. "Cultural looting and profiteering cannot be tolerated anywhere, and this cooperation between our governments is a large step forward to stopping it."

My efforts to contact Prokopi today were unsuccessful, but representatives of Heritage Auctions issued this statement from the company's co-chairman, Jim Halperin:

"We auctioned the Tyrannosaurus bataar conditionally, subject to future court rulings, so this matter is now in the hands of lawyers and politicians. We believe our consignor purchased fossils in good faith, then spent a year of his life and considerable expense identifying, restoring, mounting and preparing what had previously been a much less valuable matrix of unassembled, underlying bones. We sincerely hope there will be a just and fair outcome for all parties."

More about the tyrannosaur:


Alan Boyle is msnbc.com's science editor. Connect with the Cosmic Log community by "liking" the log's Facebook page, following @b0yle on Twitter and adding the Cosmic Log page to your Google+ presence. You can also check out "The Case for Pluto," my book about the controversial dwarf planet and the search for new worlds.

Discuss this post

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Didn't I see this in a movie somewhere : Quickly, now - lets gather a team to steal the bones and let the black market enjoy them. Insurance will pay the warehouse, they will pay the seller - and the Mongolians will be told "We Tried." The only other losers will be the lawyers, and to that problem, I will let others speak.

  • 1 vote
#1 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:34 PM EDT

Does this one have a name? The last T. rex out of the western US was nicknamed Sue. Maybe we should call this one Ghengis.

Incidentally, let's get the paleontology right before our Linneans have a nervous breakdown. It's a Tarbosaurus bataar, not a Tyrannosaurus bataar. It's a different, slightly smaller species than Tyrannosaurus, although it belongs to the same group of late Cretaceous theropods, the tyrannosaurids, as out own beloved T. rex. Calling it a Tyrannosaurus (the name of a specific species ) is like calling a coyote a wolf.

  • 11 votes
#1.1 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:36 PM EDT

Indeed a rare dinosour if it is over 6,000 years old. LOL

  • 15 votes
#1.2 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:02 AM EDT

According to Heritage Auction's website...

"Our Mission is...

to be the world's most trusted and efficient marketplace and information resource for owners of fine art, jewels, rare collectibles, and other precious objects.

and Our Values are...

  • Integrity — Honesty and fairness must define every facet of our business."
  • 4 votes
#1.3 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:19 AM EDT

It is about integrity that the dino should be returned to Mongolia. Mongolia has a lot of dino fossils and once one of the bones are stolen, the trust will be gone between outside dino researchers and the Mongolian government. Mongolians might think they might steal the bones when they go in to do some research in the area. For scientific integrity and for future trust and more dino research in Mongolia, it should be returned. It is really not about the money or the skeleton per se.

  • 8 votes
#1.4 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:36 AM EDT

I agree, it was obiously taken without concent, returning it is the correct thing to do. I thought Model T's where more expensive that that.

  • 5 votes
#1.5 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:56 AM EDT

@thturd,

The auction house was well aware of all the potential legalities. They knew that it was imported with a false declaration of value ($15k instead of $1.5million.) They knew that it was was taxinomically mis-named. They knew that it had come illegally from Mongolia. So they conducted the auction conditionally. The sale is not complete until all legal challenges have been resolved. The sale will most probably be annulled.

Who will be the big loser will be the anonymous seller. The seller mis-declared both its orgin and its value when it was brought into the country --- two federal crimes. But even if the sale is voided, the seller will still have to pay the broker's margin on the item.

  • 1 vote
#1.6 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:23 AM EDT

Yes, it has a 'name' - Bataar, which mean "Hero", in the Mongolian Language.

  • 1 vote
#1.7 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:06 AM EDT

OldGator - if I remeber my taxoomy classes - Tyrannosaurus and Tarbosaurus are not species but rather genus. A species is Tyrannosaurus rex - genus - Tyrannosaurus, specie - rex. Just like a human is genus - Homo and specie sapien.

  • 4 votes
#1.8 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:19 AM EDT

Needs be, notwithstanding a Lieyer wrote this! EOR!

    #1.9 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:29 AM EDT

    If the Feds want to get the skeleton back to it's rightful owners, how about they work on getting all of the old artifacts and ruins from England, they stole, and give them back to THEIR rightful owners. Greece

      #1.10 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:34 AM EDT

      Will England have to give the Kohinoor Diamond back to India as well?

      • 3 votes
      #1.11 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:53 AM EDT

      TheKhanKubla - no don't think so...may start a chain reaction - suits to return/compensate all blood diamonds back to africa , to local villiages in Nigeria for stolen oil... , etc.. etc... etc...

        #1.12 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:57 AM EDT

        @Tommy Lee: well, in a sense, it is a Model T.

          #1.13 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:03 PM EDT

          According to the article, the previous owner did work to the skeleton, which is what raised the value of the fossil. So, at the time, the skeleton entered the country it may have only been valued at the $15K mentioned, which would not be a misrepresentation. It may be worth $1 million now, but it wasn't always so. Values fluctuate up and down, so there is no definitive value that could have been set. Also, I am fairly certain that the auction house will have to refund the money to the new owner, but it sounds like they have postured themselves for a court battle to retain the money. I could be wrong, but the comments hinted at that

          • 1 vote
          #1.14 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:30 PM EDT
          Reply

          Pretty cheap for a mostly intact T. I do hope Mongolia gets it back since it would set a good precedent.

          I live an hour east of a dinosaur " quarry " in Wyoming where a noted Swiss paleontologist-for-hire dug up an Allosaurus and other critters on what he thought was private land---for profit , as a procurer for some of the world's leading exhibit institutions , and he was getting a lot more than $ 1 million for lesser known dinos. Until it was discovered his digs were actually on federal BLM lands. Oops...

          Research the Bone Wars in the American West of the late 1800's , when dinosaur fossils were all the global rage and people of all stripes would go to great lengths to get some. Mostly unethical or illegal lengths, and not without violence.

          That never went away . Good opportunities in Argentina and the Sahara for those of less than virtuous character and more than a little greed...

          • 6 votes
          Reply#2 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:00 PM EDT

          Surprised not to see Getty's name involved...

          • 2 votes
          #2.1 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:21 AM EDT

          By Proxy sale aka dah Hunt Bros.

          • 1 vote
          #2.2 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:31 AM EDT

          Eric sure knows how to return an illegal alien when he wants to do so.

          Now, if he would only show some concern for unemployed american citizens.

          • 1 vote
          #2.3 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:54 AM EDT
          Reply

          I know heritage House. They sell coins. They are full of S**I!!!!!!!!!!!! They knew they had something illegal and should be fined and shut down for six months from doing any kind of selling. They are slims.

          Anybody who thinks they can just auction off a dinasour is a lame-brain idiot. Who do they think they are fooling? Even an idiot with an IQ of 55 knows you cannot get away with this!!

          • 6 votes
          Reply#3 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:06 PM EDT

          Even an "idiot with an IQ of 55" knows how to spell "dinosaur". At least you figured it out in your subsequent (and almost identical) post 11 minutes later.

          • 5 votes
          #3.1 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:49 AM EDT
          Comment author avatarBill Billingtonvia Facebook

          get back on your meds.

          • 2 votes
          #3.2 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:13 AM EDT

          Don't mind the Dinasour. You just add some Dinasweet sauce, for a great asian dish.

            #3.3 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:45 PM EDT
            Reply

            Do the Mongolians know the US feds are suing to have this pile of million year old bones shipped back there -- freight collect?

            • 1 vote
            Reply#4 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:16 PM EDT

            T-Rex is on the no-fly list.

            • 14 votes
            #4.1 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:18 PM EDT

            denver has the right idea :)

              #4.2 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:11 PM EDT

              it is awfully nice the USA is footing the bill to get these bones back to their rightful owners! Especially when we can't pay our own bills?

              • 12 votes
              #4.3 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:50 PM EDT

              If I was air port security, I'd put T Rex on the no fly list too, assuming that it wouldn't pose weight problems for the plane, if it wasn't a pile of bones.... Any carnivour that could be inclined to eat the passengers, would be more terror provoking then a guy with a bomb strapped to his chest.

              It's a good thing, one of these things aren't alive. Our world would definitely not be the same if we had one of those running loose in the streets :o Think King Kong or worse with that one....

                #4.4 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:20 AM EDT

                T-Rex on a Boat Starring Samual L Jackson...

                • 1 vote
                #4.5 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:31 AM EDT

                Good one denver bill 2! We need more humor, people get to darned serious!

                  #4.6 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:15 AM EDT

                  Get this motherf-ing dinosaur off this motherf-ing plane! (and/or boat)

                  • 1 vote
                  #4.7 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:30 AM EDT
                  Reply

                  Heritage sells coins, and over priced. They are full of it. They knew this was illegal. An idiot with an IQ of 55 knows you cannot just sell a huge dinosaur like this, and the price indicates the mentality of who would figure this out.

                  They should be fined and shut down for six months. The owners and CEO should go to prison for two years minimum.

                  • 2 votes
                  Reply#5 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:17 PM EDT

                  Did you even bother to read the article? The sale is pending on the outcome of the court proceedings. They auctioned it with that condition attached. They are doing the auction on behalf of the seller. The only thing they would get out of this is a commission if the sale goes through.

                  You obviously have some deep seated hate for Heritage to go on a rant about them for a situation where they did nothing wrong and are actually doing the right thing holding up the sale.

                  • 10 votes
                  #5.1 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:10 PM EDT

                  The "right thing" to do would have been to delay the sale entirely until the courts had ruled. Heritage has slime on their hands on this one.

                  • 1 vote
                  #5.2 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:39 AM EDT

                  @dannydefw,

                  Heritage House is an auction house. "over priced" is not an issue because it is the bidders, not the auction house, that determines the sale price. The auction house well knew the controversy surrounding the fossils, but the seller was willing to commit to a conditional sale (conditioned on all legal challenges being resolved) and to paying the broker's commission (likely around 15-20%) even if the sale does not go through. They did nothing illegal or unethical and have operated absolutely aboveboard and openly and any "idiot with an IQ of 55" should be able to see it.

                  • 1 vote
                  #5.3 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:30 AM EDT

                  At an auction the dealer sets the price. If no one bids they lower the price until someone does. So if they got that much money for it. Someone wanted to spend that. It is the same with all the items they sell. So if something is over priced it is because people are willing to pay that. Im not saying the auction house is not happy with the amount, but if the court awards it back to Mongolia the buyer gets his money back. The AH gets nothing. Well, they might take a nifty cut for processing fees.

                    #5.4 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:08 AM EDT

                    So let me see if I can catch your drift on this one. Someone buys a cell phone for $100, puts the BOX (not necessarily even the phone) up on Ebay (an online auction house) up, and people bid up to $540 for it. Now in the case of just selling the box (if it's advertised as a cell phone), there actually would be something here, aka mis-representing the product.

                    So would you be all upset with Ebay on this one? Or the seller? Because in most cases people seem to call the seller out, not Ebay itself. Hell, there was a Judge Judy where someone tried to sell pictures of cell phones, and tbh, it was THE SELLER in the court room, who got punked by Judge Judy, not Ebay itself....

                      #5.5 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:26 AM EDT
                      Reply

                      Give the damn skeleton back! Like we haven't found these all over North America? WTF?

                      This should also be classified a prohibited importation, which should have been SEIZED BY U.S. CUSTOMS under Title 19-CFR -- could be a BIG fines, penalties & forfeiture case. If I were with their Embassy, I'd take that route. Fast.

                      • 1 vote
                      Reply#6 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:18 PM EDT

                      Not as complete as this one. Howerver I say give it back.... but see if we could get a cast made of it for our scientists to study. Or a bunch of very goo scans... and Pay the Ullanbataar government for it.

                        #6.1 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:18 PM EDT

                        @Warren,

                        The skeleton is very sought after because it is a sub-species that is NOT found "all over North America." You have it confused with T. Rex. When the fossil was brought into the country it was labeled as a "fossil assortment" and valued at $15k. The customs people red-flagged the shipment and have been investigating since. The only problem is that customs people are not trained in paleo and have to hire (from a decimated budget) the appropriate experts.

                          #6.2 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:36 AM EDT
                          Reply
                          DantoRangDeleted

                          American thieves as usual, plundering anywhere and anyway they can, lie, steal, cheat, murder, capitalist inbesiles.

                          • 3 votes
                          Reply#8 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:10 PM EDT

                          What's that? An inbred window sill?

                          • 2 votes
                          #8.1 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:14 PM EDT

                          Hey Freedom-Suporter: At least learn to spell imbecile, you idiot.

                          • 9 votes
                          #8.2 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:18 PM EDT

                          Gotta laugh at socialist libtards who whine about America while being protected by American freedom of speech.

                          • 3 votes
                          #8.3 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:47 PM EDT

                          About as much as I gotta laugh at neofascist conservatoids who belch platitudes about freedom of speech and then attack anyone who takes advantage of it.

                          • 10 votes
                          #8.4 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:30 PM EDT

                          Eric, learn to spell "supporter" you idiot!

                          Old gator, evidently you don't read many of the comments made by libs. They are the ones who resort to childish name-calling (uh---your own post, case in point) to attack any thought-to-be conservative who dares to post his opinion. Are you people just too stupid to read and understand your own rants?

                          • 1 vote
                          #8.5 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:13 AM EDT

                          I can't recall any particular rant, but I stand by it...whatever it was.

                          • 2 votes
                          #8.6 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:47 AM EDT
                          Reply

                          Smuggling's never good.. the dino should be sent back. But I do have one stupid question.. how on earth does one get an intact t-rex skeleton out of Mongolia, overland to what is presumably a Russian or Chinese port, into a container (presumably), onto a ship, and onward forwarded (through customs) into the US? The shear amount of concealment and number of times that bribes would have had to be paid is simply mindboggling, not to mention the logistics. Somebody REALLY wanted this skeleton. hehe...

                          • 1 vote
                          Reply#9 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:14 PM EDT

                          A little Cash under the table. There are many, many, hungry, hard-up customs officers in Vladivostok, Tianjin, Lüshunkou, Nanjing, ....... Of course disassembled, This T-Rex probably takes up little more space than an SUV. Plus considering all of the extant T-Rex fossils ever found worldwide could easily fit into a medium sized U-Haul, yes, the fossils have HUGE value given the right markets. There is more volume in pure platinum than those fossils.

                            #9.1 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:31 PM EDT
                            Reply

                            Can Chicago's Field Museum of Natural History return the Brachiosaurus back to Grand Junction, Colorado as well???

                            • 3 votes
                            Reply#10 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:15 PM EDT

                            I just saw that Brachiosaurus fossil (I think). There's a very impressive specimen in Terminal B at O'Hare airport. I had a very long layover and just stared and stared. It was actually a replica of the fossils, but I'm pretty sure it's the same one as there was all this stuff about the field museum, but not a word about Grand Junction. I took lots of pictures for my 7-year old to enjoy. Colorado is a great place to live if you like paleontology.

                              #10.1 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:04 PM EDT
                              Reply

                              So...let's bring one job back from China for every dollar of value as part of that deal- then, dead bones can give those still living good reason to dance.

                              Frankly, China stole far more from us than we've stolen from them (see: "Trade Deficit"). But they were allowed to walk in the front door and then quietly ushered out the back (with our plundered futures) by the corporations who hired them- knowing in advance that they'd get a cut of the loot.

                              What followed was no surprise to anyone who was paying attention. The ship of state was run aground on the rocks of greed once the captains of industry were at the helm- because that made it so much easier to plunder the cargo...

                              And here we are....didn't I see this as a sitcom once? Oh, yeah..."Gilligan's Island".

                                Reply#11 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:30 PM EDT

                                How did China enter this equation? This skeleton was stolen from Mongolia, not China. Do you know the difference between those countries?

                                • 7 votes
                                #11.1 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:49 PM EDT

                                FeO2, The T Rex is from Mongolia, not China. They are separate countries.

                                • 2 votes
                                #11.2 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:02 PM EDT

                                Yeah, yeah! China stole our plans! Look, OUR industrial age started with textile mill plans, stolen from Britian. What's your point?

                                It would be nice if this were a first step, in the right direction, to rectifying the massive thefts of natural, and artistic resources, between nations. Britian needs to sell about half of itself, to repay for its theft (from nearly everywhere) of valuable art, historical, and scientific objects. The Brits have, for centuries, been the biggest band of thugs, thieves and bullies around. Equally, the French, Russians, Germans, etc., etc.. If we've stolen anything (America itelf, maybe?), we should be returning it, to its rightful owners.

                                  #11.3 - Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:36 AM EDT

                                  I stand corrected.

                                  Yet...most archaeology in Mongolia- which has the lowest population density on the planet at about 5 people per square mile- is being done by teams from China.

                                  Yes, there are teams from Russia- and even from the United States- but China has a very strong interest in Mongolia for several reasons- not the least of which would be the fact that the Mongolia and China were united for much of their joint histories- and China is probably the political strength behind the demands of a nation which enjoys very little real political influence over the United States.

                                  Mongolia as an independent nation with its current boundaries and government (modeled on the strictures of Tibetan Buddhism, not Kublai Khan) has existed only since the collapse of the Qing Dynasty in late 1911- barely more than a century.

                                  There's a substantial connection there, and a narrow focus on national boundaries in no way invalidates my contentions.

                                    #11.4 - Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:33 AM EDT

                                    One last point...Mongolia exists as a "sovereign" nation- unlike Tibet- for only one reason: it serves as a convenient buffer state between Russia and China- who have not always been on the friendliest of terms.

                                      #11.5 - Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:08 PM EDT
                                      Reply

                                      I think we should give the skeleton back to Marc Bolan. It belongs to him.

                                      If you dont know who that is, google it!

                                      • 2 votes
                                      Reply#12 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:37 PM EDT

                                      Wait a minute;

                                      They're telling me that all I have to do is drive out to Montana or South Dakota; locate a T-rex skeleton, dig it up and it will sell for 1M? How hard can it be? "Honey, grab the shovel; we're leaving..."

                                      Good evening.

                                      • 2 votes
                                      Reply#13 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:52 PM EDT
                                      Comment author avatarKansasBobExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                                      We have 11 dead and 30 wounded in Chicago and the feds are fighting over bones!!! Perfect reason why we vote ALL the bums out of office in November!!!!

                                      VOTE THEM ALL OUT!!!!!!

                                      • 1 vote
                                      Reply#14 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:57 PM EDT

                                      Feds don't enforce state or city laws. BTW, There are many different departments to the U.S. dept of Justice, each works in a different area. And, BTW, the Dept of Justice isn't filled with elected officials, so who are you going to "vote out?"

                                      • 8 votes
                                      #14.1 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:04 PM EDT
                                      Reply

                                      "Mongolia has had laws on the books forbidding the export of dinosaur fossils since 1924" ....

                                      So there's no bones about it ....

                                      Tarbosaurus bataar should be sent home to Mongolia ASAP ....

                                      And all of the smugglers involved with this one should be prosecuted ....

                                      • 4 votes
                                      Reply#15 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:01 PM EDT

                                      Doesn't Mongolia have lawyers? Or is it sheep herding season and the Mongolian lawyers don't have the time?

                                        Reply#16 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:04 PM EDT

                                        That guy needs to eat a little more, he's all bones.

                                          Reply#17 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:06 PM EDT

                                          Great post Alan, As soon i saw the headline i was totally over this article, in the past i worked with a construction company that built Nathan Myhrvolds's home in Medina WA. As you probably know he has a T-rex in the middle of his great-room i was part of the crew that put the skeleton together. She is a direct replica from the molds of "Sue" from the museum in Chicago. http://seattle-mansions.blogspot.com/2010/02/nathan-myhrvolds-t-rex-house.html

                                          • 2 votes
                                          Reply#18 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:13 PM EDT

                                          Possession is 9/10's of the law except US courts that would give away gold and jewels found after several hundred years in the ocean to Spain, the country that stole the valuables originally. Some one in Mongolia discovered it, unearthed it, sold it willingly and others helped shipped it. End of story. Belongs to the new owners. What are we a charity?

                                          • 1 vote
                                          Reply#19 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:15 PM EDT

                                          I admire the way you expect common sense to break out in our government. I am always glad to see optimism alive and well. Give it time, and we may end up with bare museums all around the country, while we end up paying the freight charges. Lol. Peace.

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #19.1 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:44 PM EDT

                                          Possession is 9/10's of the law

                                          So anyone who steals something of value, or smuggles it to another country, can claim your playground law as the basis for keeping it?

                                            #19.2 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:33 AM EDT

                                            Museums would be full, but with remnants of each country's own heritage. How educational that would be for our children.

                                              #19.3 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:44 AM EDT
                                              Reply
                                              LooooongDeleted

                                              I wish the feds were as adamant about sending beck illegal aliens as they are about an illegal dino .

                                              • 10 votes
                                              Reply#21 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:36 PM EDT

                                              Excellent point. If the T-Rex was capable of taking an American citizen's job, I suspect it would be allowed to stay.

                                              • 6 votes
                                              #21.1 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:42 PM EDT
                                              Reply

                                              I admit I am no expert on Mongolia, but how exactly is this a cultural artifact? What impact does a fossil have on their heritage? I suspect the Mongolian government simply want the money for themselves. I have no problem with that; it's understandable. I would just like them to be honest about it.

                                              I am also interested because this is another example of how eager our own government is in suing Americans. It has not been established (yet) that this was stolen. The odds are very good that it was, but that is not my point. Why not just give the thing back, without all of the legal hassle? It would probably be cheaper just to buy it from the Mongolian government than to run a U.S. government investigation into the matter. I like the way we are trying to be friendly to the Mongolian government and its people, but think the way this is being handled is a massive waste of increasingly scarce resources. These U.S. lawyers would be put to better use by focusing on some domestic problems.

                                              This also opens the door to countries suing us for artifacts that we have had for decades, if not over a century. If this becomes a trend, we could very well be sued for every mummy our museums have, or paintings, sculptures, human skeletons, etc. I agree with Yank-957120. Once we start down this path, will our own government make a career out of suing itself over artifacts housed in its own museums? I know it's highly unlikely, but you never know.

                                              • 2 votes
                                              Reply#22 - Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:41 PM EDT

                                              We here in America consider a lot of natural phenomena as our cultural heritage too, despite it not being manmade. From the Grand Canyon, to Pikes Peak, from grizzly bears to bald eagles, all part of nature we did not create, but were already here before European colonists even arrived. And yet they are part of American culture. If we found out someone was stealing our blad eagles, and selling them overseas, we too would demand their return, even though they are just part of our wilderness, and our culture didn't 'create' them.

                                              As for your claim that this is a dangerous precedent, it is not by far the first. America had to give a lot of cultural stuff back to countries it stole from, or, alternately, items that were already stolen by someone else. America had to return the vast majority of its Ancient Egyptian collection decades ago. It had to return a lot of items/art to jews whose property was stolen by the nazis and subsequently salvaged by us at the end of WWII.

                                              This return of dinosaur bones is not a dangerous precedent itself, but merely being consistent with already existing precedents.

                                              • 3 votes
                                              #22.1 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:21 AM EDT

                                              Thank You, Michael! I was wondering it anyone was going to connect the dots. Culture? Arts. Sciences, Lifestyles, Religion? I believe the find should be non-destructively scanned, then sent back to its country of origin. Sellor beware.

                                                #22.2 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:18 AM EDT

                                                Yes, this should be a precendent, if we have stolen artifacts they should be returned the rightful owners. Not every museum piece from other countries were stolen. Many were purchased, or donated, or are on indefinite loan, with approval of the respective government. So I really don't see how our museums would suddenly be empty if we returned stolen items.

                                                Are you saying that if someone stole a painting from a musuem here, and it made it to say Spain, that they should get to keep it? Or let's say that someone raided a Native American site and found countless artifacts, taking them to another country, that we should just let it go? I believe that the more dangerous precedent would be our ignoring existing law and not intervening in this case.

                                                And by the way, these bones were not in a museum as they were privately owned, and there is no indication that the buyer was one either. It is just as likely that the buyer was an individual, or a corporation, or maybe even someone from yet another country. Therefore if there was a precendent set by this case it isn't clear that musuems would be impacted.

                                                  #22.3 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:22 AM EDT

                                                  Consider the fact hat many of today's dinosaurs are the result of digs in Mongolia. Hence the early descriptions of "dragons". If an unsuspecting farmer discoverred huge bones and especially jawbones of such an animal, would they not surmise that this animal is but the remnant of some giant creature they have never seen before. That is hy there are so many "dragons" in Chinese and Oriental culture based on a few thouand years of story telling about he bone of these great creatures

                                                    #22.4 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:58 PM EDT
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                                                    Hope they feed Dino, he doesn't look that healthty.

                                                      Reply#23 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:09 AM EDT

                                                      This is a no brainer. Give it back with no money exchanging hands anywhere. Happens all the time in the real world. If no government or lawyers are involved. Since they are let them see what its like when it happens to them. It belongs to someone else. Everybody knows who the rightful owner is. Give it back. Pretty simple.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      Reply#24 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:21 AM EDT

                                                      That's only worth $1 million? Surprising. Belongs to the Mongolians though, not the wealthy...

                                                        Reply#25 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:37 AM EDT

                                                        Use my tax money for what?

                                                        • 2 votes
                                                        Reply#26 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:42 AM EDT

                                                        It is a fake. God put it here 6,000 years ago to test our faith.

                                                        Snakes talk

                                                        chicks get knocked up without sex

                                                        people worship some dead guy on a stick and eat his flesh and drink his blood. no really!

                                                        going to get beamed up to their invisible space daddy in the clouds.

                                                        • 1 vote
                                                        Reply#27 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:57 AM EDT

                                                        I read a study today saying that hardcore atheists are much more likely to get Alzheimer's when they get old. Something about an underdeveloped/atrophied hippocampus (the part of the brain critical to learning and memory).

                                                        • 3 votes
                                                        #27.1 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:46 AM EDT

                                                        I read a study today saying that hardcore atheists are much more likely to get Alzheimer's when they get old. Something about an underdeveloped/atrophied hippocampus (the part of the brain critical to learning and memory).

                                                        ....citations needed.

                                                        • 1 vote
                                                        #27.2 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:03 AM EDT

                                                        Explain to me why it is that "True Believers" (Biblical Literalists, Creationists, Intelligent Design Advocates, "Answers in Genesis" types, Fundamentalists, etc., etc. - whatever they are calling themselves) love to cite science when they think it supports their position, while rejecting its answers and methods when they conflict with their beliefs? Unlike Spencer, I don't need to ask for cites to this supposed study (the existence of which I doubt), since it is the hypocrisy of its invocation which condemns KoWT's reasoning far more than anything it may have said or been alleged to have said.

                                                          #27.3 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:11 PM EDT

                                                          It was a Duke University study, look it up. It's not so much that the hippocampus was underdeveloped in old age. More like it was atrophied, and often accompanied by Alzheimers. I would suppose that the underlying stress that leads someone to rudely attack religious believers on a forum like this would indicate that someone is experiencing more stress than usual, if only from being a vocal and rancorous member of a decidedly cultural minority like atheism. That kind of stress has been shown to cut down on your grey matter later in life. From where I sit, back here in the cheap seat? Militant in-your-face atheists are a drag on the same order as door-to-door Baptists; tolerable, but only barely. Have you tried agnosticism? I hear that helps.

                                                          • 2 votes
                                                          #27.4 - Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:14 PM EDT
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