Scientists find medicinal plants caught in Neanderthal teeth

CSIC Comunicacion

Researchers work inside Spain's El Sidron cave, where plaque scraped from the teeth of Neanderthals suggests that at least one of them was chewing medicinal plants.


Tooth scrapings from tens of thousands of years ago suggest that Neanderthals chewed on medicinal plants to soothe their upsets.

That's the conclusion drawn by an international team of researchers who conducted a chemical analysis on dental calculus from five sets of Neanderthal remains that were excavated inside El Sidron Cave in northern Spain. The calcified crud contained microscopic bits of plant material as well as chemicals associated with wood smoke.

The analysis indicated that the Neanderthals ate cooked plant food that was high in starch, and perhaps also nuts, grasses and green vegetables. One case was particularly intriguing: The scrapings from an individual known as Adult 4 contained chemicals known as azulenes and coumarins. Those are the sorts of chemicals that are found in yarrow and chamomile, two types of herbal remedies.


Yarrow is an astringent that's long been used to cleanse wounds when used externally, or counter internal bleeding when ingested. Chamomile may be best-known today as a soothing tea, but that's because it has a settling effect on colds, headaches, intestinal distress and menstrual cramping. Both plants have anti-inflammatory properties.

The researchers say this is the first molecular-scale evidence supporting the idea that Neanderthals ingested medicinal plants. Their findings — which are based on a high-tech method of analysis known as pyrolysis-gas chromatography-mass spectrometry, plus the study of plant microfossils — were published online today in the journal Naturwissenschaften.

Neanderthals had a varied diet
"The varied use of plants we identified suggests that the Neanderthal occupants of El Sidron had a sophisticated knowledge of their natural surroundings, which included the ability to select and use certain plants for their nutritional value and for self-medication. While meat was clearly important, our research points to an even more complex diet than has previously been supposed," the study's lead author, Karen Hardy, said in a news release from the University of York.

Hardy is a research professor at the Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona's Catalan Institute of Research and Advanced Studies as well as an honorary research associate at the University of York.

CSIC Comunicacion

Neanderthal teeth are among the remains found in Spain's El Sidron Cave.

One of Hardy's colleagues, Stephen Buckley of the University of York's BioArCh research facility, said the team was surprised to find evidence that this particular Neanderthal was chewing on plants that had no nutritional value. "We know that Neanderthals would find these plants bitter, so it is likely these plants must have been selected for reasons other than taste," Buckley said in the news release.

But in retrospect, Hardy now thinks it's not as surprising as it seems. She pointed out that chimpanzees and other animals chew on non-nutritional plants that have medicinal effects. Why shouldn't it have been the same for Neanderthals?

"We have identified these plants ... we feel the most likely use is for self-medication," Hardy told me in an email. "In fact, I would find it harder to argue that they did not use medicinal plants than that they did, particularly as this fits so well with the extensive evidence for self-medication among higher primates and many other animals. So we have a behavioral context for this use."

Where's the beef?
Previous research has suggested that Neanderthals ate a meat-heavy diet, but Hardy and her colleagues found no evidence of meat consumption in the tooth crud they analyzed. That doesn't necessarily mean these particular Neanderthals were vegetarians. The lack of evidence could be due to the way chemicals in the crud were preserved, or it could suggest that Neanderthals shifted their diet due to seasonal changes or migratory habits.

The findings released today hint at even closer kinship between modern humans and our Neanderthal cousins, who first settled in Europe at least 300,000 years ago but went extinct about 24,000 years ago. The Neanderthals whose teeth were examined for the study were part of a community of at least 13 individuals who lived in the El Sidron Cave somewhere between 47,300 and 50,600 years ago.

"El Sidron has allowed us to banish many of the preconceptions we had of Neanderthals," said Antonio Rosas of the Museum of Natural History in Madrid-CSIC. "Thanks to previous studies, we know that they looked after the sick, buried their dead and decorated their bodies. Now another dimension has been added, relating to their diet and self-medication."

More about ancient humans and their relatives:


In addition to Hardy, Buckley and Rosas, the authors of "Neanderthal Medics? Evidence for Food, Cooking and Medicinal Plants Entrapped in Dental Calculus" include Matthew J. Collins, Almudena Estalrrich, Don Brothwell, Les Copeland, Antonio Garcia-Tabernero, Samuel Garcia-Vargas, Marco de la Rasilla, Carles Lalueza-Fox, Rosa Huguet, Markus Bastir, David Santamaria, Marco Madella, Julie Wilson and Angel Fernandez Cortes.

Alan Boyle is NBCNews.com's science editor. Connect with the Cosmic Log community by "liking" the log's Facebook page, following @b0yle on Twitter and adding the Cosmic Log page to your Google+ presence. To keep up with Cosmic Log as well as NBCNews.com's other stories about science and space, sign up for the Tech & Science newsletter, delivered to your email in-box every weekday. You can also check out "The Case for Pluto," my book about the dwarf planet and the search for new worlds.

Discuss this post

Perhaps ... eventually ... we will begin to understand that Neanderthal were not the ignorant brutes we were so long told. Perhaps they were the ones who taught the 'modern' humans to be .... civilized (though that is certainly still a work in progress). How wonderful it would be to finally understand the true and very, very long history of Humanity.

  • 19 votes
Reply#1 - Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:47 PM EDT

They were certainly around longer than us Homo Sapiens have been, and by almost double. At the rate we're going, we won't make it to their level of longevity as a species.

  • 11 votes
#1.1 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:42 AM EDT

This is just fascinating, but what I found the most interesting was the condition of the teeth, especially the upper palate shown in the picture. The missing teeth appeared to have come lose post mortem and there is no obvious sign of decay. Wow. Neanderthals practiced good dental hygiene? Who'd a thunk?

I'm starting to theorize that the Neanderthal's may have evolved from more peaceful and caring Bonobos and we Homo Sapiens arose from the more violent Chimpanzees.

That's my theory and I'm welcome to it.

That's my

  • 8 votes
#1.2 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:50 AM EDT

Skip,

You have a very interesting and thought provoking theory. Maybe Neanderthals were the first species we humans consciously drove to extinction?

  • 3 votes
#1.3 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:01 AM EDT

And in various epochs around and before 30,000 years ago, several other humanoid species have come and gone out of existence. All of them were apparently neither related to the Neanderthals, nor to us, other than also being human.

  • 2 votes
#1.4 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:50 AM EDT

Thanks Roy, yeah, that's the way I'm leaning. It's kind of a frightening thought when you get right down to it.

I mean, you'd have to admit that we humans aren't the "made in God's image" species we'd like to think we are. We are a petty, self-destructive and down-right dangerous species who appear to be hell-bent on destroying ourselves and our planet.

The poor, ugly, misunderstood Neanderthals may have been the true "children of God" all along.

And we WIPED THEM OUT! YEOW!

Naaaah. Couldn't happen.....could it?

  • 5 votes
#1.5 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:53 AM EDT

"we humans aren't the made in God's image....We are a petty, self-destructive and down-right dangerous species who appear to be hell-bent on destroying ourselves and our planet."

How do you know that is not what God is like? Most ancient peoples thought exactly that. The evidence seemed everywhere around them.

  • 1 vote
#1.6 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:19 PM EDT

To Skip: Regarding the excellent condition of their teeth...........

Weston A. Price, DDS, Cleveland, Ohio, (just for one) studied the diets of all ancient cultures world-wide.

"Superior health and STRONG TEETH was a direct result of diets that featured NO PROCESSED SUGAR OR FOODS."

(Halloween has always been every Dentist's nightmare for a very good reason; they even write columns in newspapers every year warning parents of the dangers of candy to their childrens teeth.......)

  • 2 votes
#1.7 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:50 PM EDT

(ie. NO refined/processed sugars = NO caries or tooth decay.)

  • 2 votes
#1.8 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:16 PM EDT

There was one researcher who advanced a theory that got a very short exposure time. When it was discovered that every single human group on earth, except subsahara africa, has dna of neanderthal oe devonsian genes ... he theorized that it just account for civilization. The introduction may have enabled larger groups of people to live and work together. Empirical evidence would support something along those lines and explain many things.

  • 1 vote
#1.9 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:29 PM EDT

There is so much proof that ancient societies had and used advanced technologies and knew how to heal that I do not know how we can still call them primitive.

Many of the great libraries of ancient knowledge have been lost and destroyed. I myself have lost herb books that where 100's of years old. Our modern medical science has become so arrogant,in denial and down right disrespectful of many facts. The ancient knowledge that has been preserved is kept from the public at large and is not used for healing and technology except if they can use it for war.

Why we are destroying and even warring over the many medicinal plants is absolutely sickening and disheartening.

  • 3 votes
#1.10 - Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:49 AM EDT

We know almost nothing of the real history of human kind. The discoveries at Gobekli Tepe have certainly made this point to anyone who has read about it. These amazing megalithic structures are apparently around 11,000 years old ... if humans were doing this then, and we only now just found out about it (the site appears to have been intentionally buried .... reminds one of 2001 a Space Odyssey) ... imagine what else we do not know .. or perhaps ... have simply not been told ... about our own ancestors ....

  • 1 vote
#1.11 - Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:36 PM EDT
Reply

cool stuff. Let me just get that in before the creationists flood us with the usual drivel!

  • 11 votes
Reply#2 - Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:47 PM EDT

Did God create evolution .... ??

Sorry ....

Had to go there .... "LOL"

  • 6 votes
#2.1 - Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:06 PM EDT
Comment author avatarMike BrutusExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

Yeah, I think it's possible they taught us to be civilized....and then we killed them off and created the Republican party. It's pretty sad.

  • 7 votes
#2.2 - Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:32 PM EDT

Anthropology is much more interesting than politics.

  • 16 votes
#2.3 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:48 AM EDT

Cavemen had Glaucoma too? LoL.

  • 3 votes
#2.4 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:52 AM EDT

Yes Mike the Neanderthals taught Homo Sapiens civility, and then you Democrats killed them off, which caused the Republican Sapiens to organize into parties to defend other Sapiens. You also managed to destroy the Stone Age economy.

You haven't learned a thing.

  • 2 votes
#2.5 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:42 AM EDT

@ Mike Brutus - You liberals call conservatives Neanderthals.....

    #2.6 - Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:22 AM EDT
    Reply

    This is a cool study ....

    I think Neanderthal may have tried to eat just about anything it saw something else eating ....

    Natural selection has played a nice roll in what flourishes now ....

    Like seeds spread from waste of tolerable eaten goodies ....

    The unrealized form of farming ....

    Thanks Alan ....

    Stay curious ....

    • 7 votes
    Reply#3 - Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:02 PM EDT

    Neanderthals may have been like us in many ways, but they just weren't very innovative. They did pretty much the same thing for 400,000 years, and when it didn't work any more, they died. That is the main difference I see.

    • 3 votes
    Reply#4 - Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:53 PM EDT

    Only about a third or less of the homo sapiens species is that innovative. Many have suffered terribly for it, some have even been killed for innovating or discovering. But if it was not for that third, we could all still be living like Neanderthals.

    • 2 votes
    #4.1 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:07 PM EDT

    The problem with that is homosapiens were not all that innovative for tens of thousands of years either. Something changed and all of a sudden there was a wave od changes all within a relatively short time frame.

    • 1 vote
    #4.2 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:11 PM EDT

    Daniel 12:4...But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

      #4.3 - Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:33 AM EDT

      @Dennis-387683 - The wave of changes that occurred was simply the weather. For eons the weather would dip into mini ice ages and then out again, preventing any man from doing the act that any civilisation needs to start - farming. Around 10,000 years ago the weather stabilised enough for farming practices to consistently take place - allowing time for innovation.

        #4.4 - Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:10 AM EDT
        Reply

        What is MOST surprising is that the scientists found it SURPRISING that the Neanderthals ate plants for medicinal purposes.

        Not only do chimps eat natures plants for medicinal purposes, but

        even our canines (DOGS) know enough to eat grass to calm the discomfort of irregularity when they need it.

        Quite humorous, actually. Thanks.

        :-)

        • 10 votes
        Reply#5 - Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:11 PM EDT

        Science has consistently underestimated other beings for centuries. It is just recently getting beyond the arrogant assumption that only human beings have any intelligence, etc. For many years, it has been known that Neanderthals had a larger cranial capacity and presumably had larger brains. Yet scientist persisted in asserting that Neanderthals were a lot less intelligent. Finally, scientists are beginning to recognize that animals and other types of hominids were not so dumb after all. It's about time.

        • 13 votes
        Reply#6 - Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:38 PM EDT

        This is why through the whole range of the populations, it is known that some dogs, and chimps, are smarter than some people. No, I do not mean that rocket scientists and brain surgeons can be found in other species (yet). But intelligence is not set in stone and does not follow a linear path.

        • 2 votes
        #6.1 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:15 PM EDT

        " it is known that some dogs, and chimps, are smarter than some people."

        No, it isn't. Not by any general definition of intelligence. If you mean scoring on some specific cognitive test, that is not "intelligence."

        Of course there are some humans that are congenitally abnormal, but I don't think that is what you are talking about.

        • 1 vote
        #6.2 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:09 PM EDT
        Reply

        Hops in beer is bitter. Bitter melon is popular in China and SE Asia - and it is bitter. A number of greens are considered bitter (late winter kale can be quite bitter). It may not be so peculiar that one of these adults had a cultivated taste for certain bitter plants.

        • 3 votes
        Reply#7 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:01 AM EDT

        As noted in the article both plants have anti-inflamitory properties. Maybe this individual was not eating but chewing to make a paste for healing wounds. Maybe this inividual was the healer of the group?

        • 5 votes
        Reply#8 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:48 AM EDT

        What is MOST surprising is that the scientists found it SURPRISING that the Neanderthals ate plants for medicinal purposes.

        Just because the plant was there, does not mean it was eaten for medicinal purposes. Maybe it was just EATEN.

        • 5 votes
        Reply#9 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:13 AM EDT

        Here it is from the Pros, Jake. Certainly many species know instinctively what to take very specifically from Mother Nature when they aren't feeling up-to-par physically.

        healthypawsfoundation.com

        Q. Why does your carnivorous canine occasionally much on grass? Pet parents have often wondered about this peculiar behavior, but in fact it can be healthy and beneficial for the animal.

        An All-Natural Canine Cure

        If your dog is experiencing intenstinal upset, he or she may snack on grass TO RELIEVE THE SYMPTOMS. Gas and a grumbly stomach are solved by ingesting blades of grass. The grass also tickles the esophagus or stomach lining, induciing the animal to vomit; this can be helpful if something disagreeable has been ingested.

        Additional Nutrition

        Grass has essential nutrients in it that dogs require for a healthy, balanced dit. Sometimes the animal may have a NUTRAL CRAVING and seek out the plant. If you notice your pet excessively consuming grass, consider adding cooked veggies or vitamin supplements to his or her diet.

        Images/pictures can be seen at w-w-w- lakewoodveterinarydotcom

        (So yes, Mother Nature has created species so they instinctively SEEK OUT her specific vegetation for medicinal purposes. Quite amazing.)

        • 4 votes
        #9.1 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:57 AM EDT

        V-e-r-y early and craving some coffee beans myself; word corrections are "munch on grass", "natural diet" , "natural craving, and "healthy balanced DIET."

        Thanks

        • 3 votes
        #9.2 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:03 AM EDT

        Or,, it just tasted good and they were hungry. No way of knowing. Jake,,, I agree.

          #9.3 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:34 PM EDT

          That's the conventional wisdom, and it may well be true, but I don't know if it has been scientifically studied.

            #9.4 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:16 PM EDT
            Reply

            Just maybe the plants were eaten for the "feeling" they might have attained from them as well, Who would really know now anyways?

            Yeah, I'm saying they might have gotten a buzz from them too! he he

            • 4 votes
            Reply#10 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:27 AM EDT

            The cave man probably had a better society and way of life than we do. If I could do it all over again Archeology would be the choice I would make. Great article.

            • 3 votes
            Reply#11 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:31 AM EDT

            More in tune with nature, maybe, but it would be debatable to call it better. Live in the caves, having to hunt and gather your food, little medical care beyond some herbs you might be able to find - it's a very rough life. Life expectancy was not very long in those days. Although I enjoy "roughing it" in the wilderness from time to time, I would not much like to live like that.

            • 3 votes
            #11.1 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:03 AM EDT

            Yes I thought of health care, but chose not to get into it that far. Just think-no Dems. or Repubs., crooked banks and Wall St. Mafia, reality t.v. Do I need to go on? Have a good one and I would chose a cave over our "civilization".

            • 1 vote
            #11.2 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:23 AM EDT

            Don't take what you have for granted. At least here a stronger man can't bash your brains in, steal your wife, and devour your children.

              #11.3 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:33 PM EDT

              You mean someone is stronger, better looking and smarter than me????

              • 1 vote
              #11.4 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:26 PM EDT

              "The cave man probably had a better society and way of life than we do"

              Give it a bit and I am sure you can test that theory. With world over population levels and a civilization based on the one resource that makes civilization and those population levels, cheap portable energy. fast reaching its limits .... when the inevitable collapse occurs it could very well end in another stone age. I somehow doubt you will enjoy it as much as you would like to.

                #11.5 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:19 PM EDT

                This is why anything that gets in the way of technological innovation must be stopped. Technology is the best way to save ourselves from ourselves.

                • 1 vote
                #11.6 - Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:14 AM EDT
                Reply

                They chewed and smoked weed as well from what I hear. Advanced race indeed!

                • 4 votes
                Reply#12 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:34 AM EDT

                How could have these "Neandethals" lived 50,000 years ago if the Bible says the Earth started 5,000 years ago? The Bible also says the sun revolves around the Earth, and that human life came from Adam & Eve.

                • 1 vote
                Reply#13 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:08 AM EDT

                The days were much longer then. And what's this b.s. about the sun not revolving around the earth?

                • 4 votes
                #13.1 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:27 AM EDT

                i dunno.. my science teacher told me the Earth actually revolves around the Sun! its blasphemy and makes absolutely no sense! good thing I know the real truth.

                • 1 vote
                #13.2 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:43 PM EDT

                Bill ... they were that city on the other side of the hill when adam and eve got booted from eden of course.

                  #13.3 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:21 PM EDT

                  How could have these "Neandethals" lived 50,000 years ago if the Bible says the Earth started 5,000 years ago?

                  I think the bible describes the beginning of an era some how it comes across to others that the beginning of the bible was about the beginning of space/ time. We seem to have it deeply embedded that we are supposed to think that Adam and Eve were the first humans.

                  Everyone knows that according to the time line this does not jive with other discoveries. I think we have evidence that several earth shattering events took place that killed much of the life on the planet. Maybe the planet was then reseeded with humans I think maybe by people from somewhere other than here. We have been taught that they were Gods. I think we are guessing at best as to what the ancient past held.

                  I think it might be like David Carradine said, "It is a great big cosmic joke ha ha ha! speaking of jokes,

                  I heard this God joke:

                  Someone asks God how long is a minute to Him?

                  God answers: My Son to Me a million years is like a minute to you.

                  Then the man asks God: How much is a dollar to Him?

                  God replies: My son to me a dollar to me is like a million dollars to you.

                  The man asks: God can I borrow a dollar?

                  God says: Yea in a minute.

                  • 1 vote
                  #13.4 - Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:47 PM EDT

                  What Scripture says the sun revolves around the earth?

                    #13.5 - Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:40 AM EDT

                    wow.. why did you take my comment so seriously. be like the Neanderthals.. smoke some pot and chill out

                      #13.6 - Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:58 AM EDT
                      Reply

                      OMG!!!

                      People before big Pharma actually used natural and local plants to heal themselves????!?!?!?!

                      What idiot decided to ‘research’ that, and how much money did he get?

                      I want to get money for a stupid research project: let’s see..... how about: "Did primitive animals and humans have sex"?

                      • 3 votes
                      Reply#14 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:52 AM EDT

                      No matter how obvious we think something is, it still needs to be tested and demonstrated.

                        #14.1 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:15 PM EDT
                        Reply

                        I'm betting all that expert research

                        That species was probably more advanced than the experts could ever "imagine" in their brains. After all, all these experts did years ago was just guess work at best.

                        With today's modern tools they have already found out that they have been wrong from day one.

                        Which is why since high school I take everything an "expert" says to be truth with a grain of salt. Most of the time they are no better at it than the man/woman on the street.

                        • 2 votes
                        Reply#15 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:31 AM EDT

                        If you really never listened to experts, you would probably be dead by now. Or at least incredibly ignorant. Yes, helathy skepticism is good, but not to the point of anti-intellectualism.

                        • 2 votes
                        #15.1 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:13 PM EDT

                        Stephen, wonder if you had the same Biology book as I did. It had a picture of the skeleton of the "missing link," half man, half ape. Years later I read that new testing revealed he was all man with arthritis of the spine. Not to mention don't eat eggs/ eat eggs. I don't put a lot of faith in "experts" either.

                          #15.2 - Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:46 AM EDT
                          Reply

                          Yarrow is very good for treating fevers. You guys need an herbalist on staff!

                          • 1 vote
                          Reply#16 - Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:40 PM EDT

                          They chewed on anything! They even Huffed Smoke!

                            Reply#17 - Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:12 AM EDT

                            Too bad they weren't aware of medicinal cannabis. Herodotus wrote of the Massagetae ingesting it, but the phenomenon wasn't as widespread then as it is now.

                            • 1 vote
                            Reply#18 - Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:19 AM EDT
                            dinghoooDeleted

                            I suspect that Neanderthal were more instinctive than us. Perhaps that is the ultimate reason why they failed in the end? (i.e., they were not quite as adaptive as us ???) - RC

                              Reply#20 - Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:51 PM EDT

                              (Please don't get me wrong. Modern man actually has a full compliment of instinct to rely upon, but most of it is simply dormant until it is activated by (early) environmental circumstance. (I can personally attest to that!)) - RC

                                #20.1 - Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:54 PM EDT
                                Reply

                                Look mom, no cavities.

                                  Reply#21 - Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:28 PM EDT

                                  Low carb diet, high fiber and protein, hmmmmm, no cavities.

                                    Reply#22 - Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:37 AM EDT

                                    Sorry to be, always, the spoil-sport. However, as I've pointed out here, Hardy et al. might be fine chemists, but they're not much at archaeological inference based on their chemical analyses. For example, they claim to have found four carbon compounds that provide evidence of smoke inhalation from cooking fires--pyrene, fluorene, fluoranthene, and phenanthrene--are the products not of open fires, but of incomplete combustion in a reducing--i.e. oxygen-deprived--atmosphere. As such, they are not, unequivocally, what the authors claim for them. In the next few days I'll be examining more of their interpretations--for that's what they are--on www.thesubversivearchaeologist.com. Drop by. You won't be disappointed. I wish I could say the same for Hardy et al.

                                      Reply#23 - Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:07 PM EDT
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