Why does religion need to take the blame for this? If you really want to know what happened, you need to study this murderer real good. Your problem is that you listen to the mainstream media too much. Do you really believe this guy just 'snapped' and went and sprayed everybody. Maybe, but I don't buy it. There is some reason why he did this. He planned it in advance.

What you need to find out, what mainstream media has not broke yet, is to study every intimate detail about James Holmes' personal life. Who is/was his girlfriend, who was he talking to the last three or four months or so ---- exactly what was happening every second of his life for the last year? Who was he? What caused this? There has to be a reason, that drove this man every day, angrier and angrier until he popped.

Paint the picture and see the answer.

(The way this looks though, you ever heard the saying that 'behind every good man is a good woman'? I don't think he had a woman.)

My guess would be that he has never 'had' a woman, was/is a virgin, and painfully repressed, sexually.

Anytime there is a horrific and barbaric act of this nature there is a need to blame and a need to understand. Blame guns, blame the Bible, Christians, Liberals, Jews, athiests, whatever. We are animals, we are divine, we are full of ignorance. This will pass, as all things do. Flanders Fields, Verdun, Shiloh, Columbine, Wounded Knee and thousands of other places of unexplained and inexplicable violence, places where blood ran and people died and God looked on mute and dumb and deaf.

The survivors feel guilty and fortunate and wonder why they survived, their families express joy and the families of the deceased grieve and through it all the sun continues to rise and the waters of the sea continue to ebb and flow and if we are honest we realize that we are insignificant in the vastness of life and eternity and yet, despite this insignificance, we are also great.

All the Religious Rightys claiming that THEIR GOD caused 911/Katrina/Tsunamis or ANY death on earth because of someones sins, are EVIL SOB's. I thought the God they pray to was the CREATOR? NOT the DESTROYOR. Zimmerman doing Gods will!!! Is that his defense? If he walks, which is douibtful, I predict he will be gunned down in the street...because it was Gods Will.

Was the theater packed full of atheists? Did I miss something? If only they had bibles in the theater maybe they could have deflected the bullets. How ridiculous to bring religion into a national tragedy like this! Whether you are religious not we all die just the same. No one is immune or protected from tragedy and there is nothing in the bible that says otherwise. God may love you, he may bless you, he may have a purpose for you, but he will never intervene to protect you or anyone from earthly harm (where in the bible does it say that Christians can't be killed?). If people want to do you harm, you better believe that God is not going to stop them.

hungrymongoose @ 1.1

"Why does religion need to take the blame for this?"

Who exactly are you replying to? It can't be the first poster and if it's the article then you need to read it (AND the headline) again because that is exactly what the writer is asking people NOT to do.

tiredofthelunacy @ 1.6

"Bobby your comments are just plain ignorant. Why don't you Christian haters either stick to things you know and understand or learn enough about what you hate to make intelligent comments?"

Again, another person who actually needs to READ THE ARTICLE! Bobby is replying to the 4 people quoted in the article- all well known conservative Republican religious or political leaders- either blaming the victims of natural disasters for what happened to them or teaching evolution for causing someone to murder innocent people. It's there, right there, in the article. Actual quotes. If you must, you can even find the video or audio of those people saying those things.

You might want to be a little more careful in who you are calling ignorant.

God, Darwin, Society, Gender Confusion, Bad Parents, Failure of the schools, Failure of the Mental Health System (Saying System is being generous), crummy parents, past sexual abuse, past physical or emotional abuse, loneliness, isolation, violent video games and movies (like Batman), or just defective.

The number of reasons for such behavior are nearly countless. Many are going to want to blame the gun and not the shooter but there are many ways to kill many innocent targets in public places.

Condolences to the victims and families. Finding an answer for why this happened won't really help.

People who are quick to play the blame game usually do it to push forward their own agenda. The religious will say its the lack of god in the country, the atheists will say its because he was Christian, the anti gun lobby will say this is evidence that more regulation is needed, the pro gun lobby will say that this was due to no one in the audience packing, etc.

Darwin doesn't get off the hook that easily. Most mental disorders have a genetic attribute. Even if he's just a stone-cold psychopath, that's a disorder.

Still, free will trumps genetics in a case like this. This man knew exactly what he was doing, and why. We may not know yet, but he planned this like building a monument to himself. 12 cases of murder 1, and, let's just say, I wouldn't want to sit through the whole reading of charges.

He has a problem, and I'm pretty sure I know what it is, but it's no excuse for what he did, even with the Joker hair. I feel really bad about the six year old though. If I had a six year old, this would not have been a movie I took her to at midnight. At least that death should have been avoided.

Lets see if we can "blame" something on this tragedy....Fricken media is orgasming over this...It was a nutcase who went past the limits of society...but whats the difference between this yo-yo and the yo-yo's who murder dozens in chicago every weekend?....why isn't there media outrage over those victims....Seems if we can blame someone or something then we can understand it better...pathetic society.

"When students are taught they are no different from animals, they act like it," Rick Warren, the mega-church pastor and inspirational author...

And, the idiot Religious Reich are already making their Menu of Stupid Comments.

More of the same!

Mygirl1 writes;

Anytime there is a horrific and barbaric act of this nature there is a need to blame and a need to understand. Blame guns, blame the Bible, Christians, Liberals, Jews, athiests, whatever. We are animals, we are divine, we are full of ignorance. This will pass, as all things do. Flanders Fields, Verdun, Shiloh, Columbine, Wounded Knee and thousands of other places of unexplained and inexplicable violence, places where blood ran and people died and God looked on mute and dumb and deaf.

The survivors feel guilty and fortunate and wonder why they survived, their families express joy and the families of the deceased grieve and through it all the sun continues to rise and the waters of the sea continue to ebb and flow and if we are honest we realize that we are insignificant in the vastness of life and eternity and yet, despite this insignificance, we are also great.

A unique and astute post......and I must say i agree 100% with your perspective, kudos!

Doug Brown

For those of no faith or faiths other than Christianity, I sincerely ask that you feel free to ignore this post. I have no wish to offend you. I rarely discuss my personal faith in public because I consider it to be very personal.

This is to address those Christians that repeatedly call non-believers "Christian haters" or believe that their God is actively punishing non-believers by punishing an entire nation.

How do you feel when radical Muslims call you Infidels that must answer to the wrath of their God? Do you not feel threatened and aggrieved by their words? How can you condemn them and still defend those of your faith doing the very same thing to non-believers or those of faiths not your own? Do you really expect them not to feel threatened and not to respond the same way you may respond to Muslim fanatics?

As a Christian believer with no allegiance to any particular church or organized religion, I believe that God does answer prayers often to keep one safe or comforted. As long as the subject of your prayers does not interfere with His plans for you. Each and every prayer should probably end with, "if it is Your will".

Every loving parent wishes to provide for the well-being and safety of their children. Every loving parent wishes for their children to be happy. Yet, every loving parent must often deny a child's particular wish if it is not in the child's best interest even when it clearly makes that child unhappy. Most children fail to understand this until they become more mature or become parents themselves. Every loving parent loves all of their children unconditionally no matter how many times one or more of them may fall from our grace.

How can we truly believe in a Heavenly Father(Who describes all of us as His children) if He grants us our every whim even when it brings us to harm or retards our own maturity? He grants all of us free will just as we must grant our own children free will once they become adults. The sins of the Father must never be visited on the children just as the sins of the adult children must never be visited on a responsible and loving Father.

God had nothing to do with this travesty. It was the act of a very evil man or a very sick man.

I hear this stuff about added security in theaters. It is all a knee jerk reaction. The odds of getting shot in a theater are less that getting struck by lighting. I don't think we need more security, raising the ticket price (which in light of the CDs may put the theaters out of businesses). When was the last time that you saw new theater built. The profit is minimal -- they live off popcorn. How they pay there real estate taxes (not to mention the employees) is beyond me.

If society must point a finger let there be two fingers. One at the young man who decided to take the lives of others and the second finger pointing back at society in general.

I say this about society, all of us, because of the division of Judeo-Christianity and those who chose to go along in life without being troubled without having to be concerned with being a Believer, but society being divided down the middle like Herod's ruling of the child. The child being the young man who committed this vile act. We as a society have created this shear division among us based on the Right's Christian beliefs along with all of the rhetoric they espouse and the Left's response to the finger pointing and accusation of the Right about moral issues that has created an atmosphere of total confusion for young people today.

I can never recall when society has been so defensive of Christian beliefs creating an atmosphere of hate, division and creating a political chasm in society. Either you believe this way or that way or you do not belong and are an outsider. We have allowed Religion to dictate politics and then allow these religious politicians to maintain their tax exempt status. Are the Christian so insecure that they feel they must dictate to the rest of society another 100 Years War? This is where we are heading and we must stop before we destroy the very fabric of this country, the melting pot on high boil.

What are we doing to our country and posterity with our selfish and childish behavior. When I was growing up and trying to find my way in life and what it all meant to me the main concern on my mind was not being drafted into a situation that I did not nor would I create. Is this not what selfish and insecure people of today created for our youth of the present? You must chose one side or the other or you cannot belong to society on equal footing. We should be ashamed of what we have created in the last two decades and sentient thinking things. Have we stopped being sentient and only think of our own desires and wants?

I don't blame God or Darwin or guns. I blame the individual. This individual sure had a lot of disposable cash & high end hardware for an unemployed college student. He wasn't a frat-party moron, but a graduate student - studying neuroscience & receiving federal money for it. And for someone packin' that much heat, the cops took him alive? If he was knockin' over a liquor store, he would have been blown clean away by the first responders. Coincidentally, hillary clinton is pushing international gun sales regulations that could potentially undermine the 2nd amendment. Just saying, something doesn't stand the light of day. Yes, this is a tragic incident and it didn't take the gift of prophecy to know the POTUS is going to make a stop there - it's a campaign year. However, looking at the nightly body count coming out of Chicago Ill., I'm reminded of an old American proverb "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. And when it comes to trusting the Gov't. (or the mainstream press), I'm reminded of an old Iraqi proverb "If you let the camel put his nose in your tent, soon you will be sleeping with the camel.

problem is that the religious cannot have a creator that only takes the credit for all the good parts of his creation then blames his victims for all the bad parts of his creation, at least with a known system that is amoral for the genetic traits one gets there is no being to blame for it, just a flawed mechanism. but if you insist on a god existing than said god has to be responsible for all the bad as well as all the good.

In reply to hungrymongoose and tiredofthelunacy-

Yeah.

Really.

Are any of the quotes wrong or in any way taken out of context?

Can you produce a better known individual that has tried to link the shootings in any way to Christianity?

You may be able to find a handful of obscure bloggers and some people writing in comment sections that do.

But for every one of those that you can produce, I can produce 50 that parrot exactly what Warren and Gohmert are saying, that this is in some way the fault of science or secularism.

When your own leaders are shooting themselves in the foot that doesn't mean you are under attack.

And, tired..., if you look real hard you can still find video of Zimmerman's interview with Sean Hannity on the web. I wonder if it was also part of "God's plan" that the prosecution are going to use his own words to prove intent?

Commonsense101-

I am an atheist and I was not only NOT offended by your moving and obviously heart-felt post but I find it hard to imagine could be.

Unfortunately I fear that your words are going to fall on deaf ears.

If something that exists can only come from something else that exists, there can never be a beginning....unless you deny the premise and accept that something MUST come from nothing, else there is no beginning. This contradicts all that we "know", and therefore can never be proven., because we can only know what we may experience and since we can not experience nothingness, we can not know of it. Therefore, God is just as valid an explanation of a beginning, as the Big Bang, and either may come before the other or only one may exist. It is, and may always be, beyond our comprehension. God, however, could NOT exist BEFORE the beginning because then God would also have existed itself thereby needing a beginning as well...even if that beginning was NOTHING. We can never know everything, because we can not know nothing.

The shooter could be a sociopath with stupid manifested thoughts. Then something got him agitated to the point that he triggered and became psychopathic and then he put his manifested thoughts into action. But if he is a sociopath the question is who created the stressful environment to make his mind snap and become sociopathic? His parents? His peers? Society? It sure wasn't God that done nor Darwin. It was man who done it.

On the flip side, some atheists suggested that Christianity was to blame, capitalizing on reports that Holmes came from a Presbyterian family.

Yes, but unfortunately, he went to a PUBLIC School, had non Christian friends and had other influences besides an hour of church on Sunday, so WHO actually influenced him MORE?

God doesn’t CAUSE things to happen, he ALLOWS things to happen, but rest assured, he was THERE with tears in his eyes and holding the hands of the victims.

If the power of prayer can save some believers, why would He be so cruel as to leave others unsaved?

Because that would take away YOUR CHOICE! He doesn’t DEMAND your salvation!

"I don't think people would do those sorts of things if they truly understood the reality of Hell," he wrote.

Seems like this guy was extremely smart which leads to a high IQ/genius. People like him do not think like normal people with average IQ. Somehow he snapped and his thoughts went into a whole different direction. It's all mental and it is something we will never understand. Stop with the blame game.

Anyone blaming religion OR evolution is taking the easy way out - both "forces" result in actions that are out of our control and, therefore, we cannot be responsible for anything we do AND there's nothing we can do about it.

It's much more simple and infinitely more complex: we live in a society that promotes and accepts violence and then we are somehow surprised when it happens.

It's not God, it's not Darwin. It's us.

Myers said the blame should instead be directed at a culture that glorifies violence, at laws that make it easy to acquire deadly weapons— and most of all, at the person who did all the shooting.

That's the opinion I find most rational.

I'm not a religious person although I was raised a Christian. If religion--any religion-- makes you a better person in this life, offers you comfort and peace, fine. Go with it. But don't try to tell non-believers that they are going to hell unless they believe what you believe. None of us know the answers to life's great riddles and sometimes the bravest way to life is to live with uncertainty and doubt.

A person can be good, kind, and moral without adhering to an organized religion. Save your judgments about the souls of such people, all who claim to be followers of Jesus Christ.

People who are quick to play the blame game usually do it to push forward their own agenda.

Yea, well, of course I have an agenda. I want to have guns banned so that only cops can legally use guns. My agenda is to be able to walk into a movie theater without having to worry about getting shot.

I don't want to live in fear. I don't want to live in fear of being shot by someone who can buy guns with their groceries and I don't want to live in fear of being shot by a vigilante who's decided that he's going to defend me.

It's really terrible of me, huh? What an evil agenda.

Commonsense101, if someone commits an act such as this because they are "sick," how can you say that they are also "evil?" Suppose a person--who was known for being rational and intelligent--developed a brain tumor that caused his mental condition to deteriorate to the point of a sociopathic disorder, such that he commits an act such as this. How can you call him "evil?"

Even religious fundamentalists, such as those who brought down the twin towers, were acting from an irrational state of mind brought about by inculcation of a belief that the god of the Quran (same god of the OT) would be pleased with such an act. In fact, they were, indeed, following that god's example of revenge and punition.

It is difficult for me to blame the individuals themselves who were driven to such acts by a mental disorder caused either by some biological defect which caused an abnormal psychological condition, or by religious inculcation which caused an abnormal psychological condition. In the case of the former, the biological defect can be caused by any one of a host of natural causes. In the latter case, the seed of evil lies in the the minds of a society that would inculcate their young to believe in a sociopathic, narcissistic god whose example they were to follow.

Sometimes even the most patient understanding reasonable non-believer cracks now and then and gets angry at the ignorance of a nut like Rick Warren, so today I'll say "Rick, it's just easier to call you stupid".

There are two types of people: those who want everything explained for them, cut and dried ('it's god's will); and those who have the courage to live with uncertainty, to live with fear, to live with not knowing what will happen when they die.

Rick Warren falls into the first camp.

I'd rather look to science for answers than look to religion. We tried and executed women for being witches in this country not so very long ago. That was done by intelligent, normal people whose entire existence was circumscribed by their religious beliefs. They were good Christian people, the people of Salem.

"Where is god in all of this?"

I don't see any measurable evidence that "god" or the "devil" had anything to do with this tragedy.

I do see plentiful and daily evidence that we as a sentient species, alone and/or in groups both large and small, have the power and the choice to create, maintain, or change these conditions we live in, thrive in, share in, and/or suffer within.

We do what we do, to ourselves and to others. Why we did it, and how we do what we do, are measurable in its constructive, neutral or destructive effects it has on others around us.

God is our role model he doesn't control us, he gave us the power of faith and we can have as much as we want, it is sad but so is Satan as much as we want.

People are such wimps. They do what they do then they blame God or say that the Devil made them do it. What a joke..

How about this, we allow drug companies to drug our children in schools. The drugs used have side effects and violence is a well known side effect of the drugs used to control behavior. When those children grow up they continue using that type of drug because they need it, it's called addiction. When the side effect kicks in some of those children go on killing sprees and sometimes kill themselves in the process.

Now, why is it that this type of thing is so common in the US but not in other countries? Because drug companies do not control the government of other countries so the children are not started on mind altering drugs like it's done here.

REmakes of cartooons, remakes of 60s sit coms, remakes of 60s cartooon shows, AMerica's got Talent, Dancing with the Stars, AMerican Idol, the Kardashians. We are truly a bankrupt culture. It's too bad we can't just declare it offficiallly and start over.

I'll tell you the real problem. Each and every tragedy like this is cheapened by loudmouth idiots with an ax to grind. The media enables these morons by giving them a megaphone because it will get eyeballs from normal people who are flabbergasted that there are loudmouth idiots taking the opportunity to grind their ax on the dead bodies of innocent people. I don't think there is a good time to push blind ideology, because of its inherent irrationality, but I especially think this just cheapens the losses that these families feel. I really hope I die in very boring way so that the loudmouth idiots don't feel the need to add their 2 cents.

Why is the silence from the NRA deafening? Everyone is blaming everyone except the NRA. The apologist of every shooting whether it be singular or multiple. Promoter for easy weapons of mass destruction.

Don't get me wrong. I own many guns but when they are being glorified by a group for political purposes it goes beyond the second amendment right to bear arms. When our forefathers granted the right of the people to bear arms they never envisioned the weapons we have today that have the ability to allow one person to kill many without reloading after every shot as in the days of old. Guns like the six shooter used to be an equalizer that allowed a weaker man to defend himself against a stronger aggressive man. Guns today allow a weak man to kill many defenseless unsuspecting people without cause. The technology of guns today has surpassed anything our forefathers even dreamed were possible.

With that being said we still have the NRA fighting to allow unstable people to buy assault weapons freely without any restrictions. Yet today we have people blaming God and evil although we've been told they have been in existence since the beginning of time. Go figure.

Larry-2260635

Why is the silence from the NRA deafening? Everyone is blaming everyone except the NRA. The apologist of every shooting whether it be singular or multiple. Promoter for easy weapons of mass destruction.

Gee Larry, since he spent mere minutes shooting everyone and MONTHS planting BOMBS in his apartment, why are you on the NRA?

Of course if everyone in the theatre were Mormon and wearing their magic underwear...then nobody would have been killed and all would be right with the world, yeah, right!

This is definitely an absurd statement, but then so are most of those quotes from all of the religious whack jobs out there.

I am a very spiritual person, however ALL organized religions are simply a form of mind control and if you are weak enough to fall into one, then of course you will lose your ability of independent thought. To most it seems that is fine because now they no longer need to think critically because the church will tell you how to think.

All of those Right-wing religious Conservatives who boycotted the Presidents speeches to school kids because they were told the president was trying to indoctrinate our children into communism or socialism, how stupid do you feel? The only message he put out was, stay in school, work hard, get good grades so you can do well in our society.

My guess would be that he has never 'had' a woman, was/is a virgin, and painfully repressed, sexually.

Well, guess what - he'll probably remain so for the rest of his life. Unless, of course, he hooks up with some nice big cellmate named Spike.

All the Religious Rightys claiming that THEIR GOD caused 911/Katrina/Tsunamis or ANY death on earth because of someones sins, are EVIL SOB's. I thought the God they pray to was the CREATOR? NOT the DESTROYOR.

Ya know, I thought that was kind of dumb, and I'm NOT a religious person myself. Just thought I'd let you know that.

If society must point a finger let there be two fingers. One at the young man who decided to take the lives of others and the second finger pointing back at society in general.

You're right at pointing the finger at this individual. You're dead WRONG at pointing the finger at society for the actions of this fruit loop.

It is difficult for me to blame the individuals themselves who were driven to such acts by a mental disorder caused either by some biological defect which caused an abnormal psychological condition, or by religious inculcation which caused an abnormal psychological condition. In the case of the former, the biological defect can be caused by any one of a host of natural causes. In the latter case, the seed of evil lies in the the minds of a society that would inculcate their young to believe in a sociopathic, narcissistic god whose example they were to follow.

Sorry, I just can't agree with you here. If you want to blame anyone for this, DON'T blame nature, or Darwin, OR society. Instead, put the blame where it belongs, ON THE SHOOTER.

Yea, well, of course I have an agenda. I want to have guns banned so that only cops can legally use guns.

I don't want to live in fear. I don't want to live in fear of being shot by someone who can buy guns with their groceries and I don't want to live in fear of being shot by a vigilante who's decided that he's going to defend me.

And I don't want to live in fear of being rammed into by some idiot texting on his cell phone, so let's ban cars, SUV'S, cell phones, and i Pad's. You know, I'm pretty pizzed at Ford, Toyota, and Apple right now. Aren't you????????

*Rolls eyes*

Wow.... I will address this the best I can: If any know me (my post) know I'm a Christian, Conservative, right wing, Science buff who happens to be a family man , retired Soldier (medic) working for a living and is actively involved in church.

I just want to say I appreciate the posts that are made in "good taste" and it easy to tell that no offense was meant. I hope mine carries the same sentiment with much care considered for those who lost loved ones in Colorado.

It has been said that God made all but Man makes his own decisions. That is true. God has never been "mute" on the subject but man can ignore what God has to say. I love it (sarc.) when those try to "lump Christianity with all other religions especially Islam. All on the vine are surely educated enough (especially the Free Thinkers) know that there is NO comparisons. (We don't strap bombs to ourselves for Jihad) and the only war Jesus spoke of is Spiritual warfare:

"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but are mighty through God" (look up the scripture yourself) It is God that teaches that there is Good and Evil. I don't blame the Storm, nor the Tragedy on God.. But I pray through the storm and the Tragedy. That God gives me strength to endure. Why don't you guys read a little history beyond the big 4 (for free thinkers) A lot happened in history other than the Crusades, Salem witch trials, Inquisition, Abuse of Church powers during the Tudors....

How about this country being founded by fleeing religious persecution.. Is it any wonder why Christian faith being kicked out of school, government and society seems not just strange but a 'regression' of the past? How about the City in that escaped the black plague by "prayer" I guarantee you it was the Christians that "showed up" at Colorado to "pray" before the "Free Thinkers" were there to "Gawk" We do want as humans (not animals) to make sense of it all (NO OTHER ANIMAL NEEDS THIS) That is what makes us different. But the Blame is squarely on man... My Bible tells me to take responsibility for my own actions.. How else do you think salvation works?

Jos_24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

As many of you know I am no advocate of man made religion, it is possible however that MMR may have had a role however no one can say for certain because this murdering SOB hasn't said anything. It could- repeat- could be that the supreme being is getting so pissed that he is using events such as this to wake us up - again - don't know. But for us to pontificate over the role of anything in the wake of this unspeakable tragedy is moronic at best. I personally think the entire condition of today's society and economic instability had as much to do with this event as anything - if we want to blame somebody everyone should look in the mirror and point fingers at the image he/she sees.

I'm waiting for him to say God told him to do this the cleanse the world from sinful people. What will the wingnuts come up with on that. Worship any way you want just keep it to youself because if you knock on my door I'll slam it in your face.

What I don't understand is why the heck are people even asking this, and trying to take advantage of a tragedy? The kid went postal, that's all there is to it, and we don't need a giant discussion on gun control laws, like every other shooting, or a talk on why the invisible Lord and Savior would LET this happen, it's called FREE WILL, and we have it.

These people trying to use this tragedy to further their own ends are parasites, they are the lowest scum on the Earth. I'm tired of tragedies bringing up stupid discussions like this. Bad things happen, we should be mourning rather than asking where Santa and the Easter Bunny were during all of this.

I don't want your bible quotes, your hellfire and brimstone and sin, I don't care. People lost loved ones in a senseless act, and you are dishonoring the memory of these people by trying to use it to further your own religious agendas.

what really gets me as a Christian, is to see the ongoing attacks on Judeo-Christian beliefs

It wasn't a attack on Christianity it was a attack on people at a movie, @sswipe. Religion has nothing to do with it. Just a mentally ill jerk with a few guns and a lot of ammo. Nothing more nothing less.

"When students are taught they are no different from animals, they act like it," Rick Warren, the mega-church pastor

.............F'ing idiotic statement. I was taught evolution in school, but not that people are the same as animals, who act on instinct. I was also taught that humans use logic and reason, and have a basic moral code which differentiaed us from animals. Unfortunately, some humans breakdown in their ability think properly (case in point, Rick Warren). By the way, doesn't mega-church pastor equate to mega-bucks pastor, following in the footsteps of Jimmy and Tammy Fay Baker?

Flame77_7

"How about this country being founded by fleeing religious persecution"

I'm afraid that that myth has been pretty thoroughly debunked. The Puritans were about as intollerant a bunch as you would ever care to encounter. Yes, it is true that the Church of England and the overwhelming majority of it's members did tell them to bugger off when their continual strident demands that they be allow to take over finally became too much but the notion that Puritans were in any way in favor of religious freedom is nonsense. What they wanted was control- as their treatment of Quakers in the new world clearly showed.

"Is it any wonder why Christian faith being kicked out of school, government and society seems not just strange but a 'regression' of the past?"

Here you may be more right than you might even be aware.

From a letter written by James Madison, the primary author of the Constitution:

"To the Baptist Churches on Neal's Greek on Black Creek, North Carolina I have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my objection to the Bill containing a grant of public land to the Baptist Church at Salem Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always regarded the practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, I could not have otherwise discharged my duty on the occasion which presented itself (Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June 3, 1811)."

Another letter from Madison:

"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together (Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822)."

There are many more examples as well showing the consistency of his views in this matter.

And if one Founding Father isn't enough, there is always Thomas Jefferson:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", thus building a wall of separation between Church & State"

Also well known as the wall of separation letter.

God doesn’t CAUSE things to happen, he ALLOWS things to happen, but rest assured, he was THERE with tears in his eyes and holding the hands of the victims.

How would you know? Are you his press secretary?

. I love it (sarc.) when those try to "lump Christianity with all other religions especially Islam. All on the vine are surely educated enough (especially the Free Thinkers) know that there is NO comparisons. (We don't strap bombs to ourselves for Jihad) and the only war Jesus spoke of is Spiritual warfare:

Tell that to the people of Northern Ireland. You shouldn't make statements that are easily, and factually debunked. That you think terrorism is somehow intrinsic to Islam, or that there are no Christian terrorists, is sad. That you try to defend your religion by denigrating another, is infuriating.

Hatvig it is wonderful to see that someone on this Vine posting has done their homework. There are no more powerful words than those who wrote the Constitution or contributed to it. With that being said I attended a university that was a Federal Repository wherein we learned our history of the US from those same writings and more that you put forth on this News Vine posting. The knowledge and insight gained from reading, writing assertions on what we gleaned and discussing them openly provided more wisdom and insight to every student fortunate enough to attend such a wonderful university.

Once again well done. It is unfortunate that the Believers will never take the time to reflect what the Founding Fathers meant by separation of Church and State. Hence we have more Evangelical interference from the Republican side of the House as was probably seen in Britain during the Puritan years. Isn't it amusing and sad to see history repeat itself due to the ignorance of the people repeating it? Maybe it is time to renounce the Churches of America's Evangelicals tax exemption status which could be likened to asking the Puritans leave Britain. This would cool their heels.

This kind of event is inevitable. But it could be made less frequent.

It's inevitable because among humans there's a constant percentage of the insane, and among them a small percentage, call them psychopathic or whatever the current label is, who could slide over into mass violence. And an even smaller percentage who do make the slide.

They have become frequent in part because of our gun laws: all guns of any kind, all the time, everywhere. This, too, is insane. More restrictive gun laws could lower the frequency slightly (if you've ever been a salesperson you know how much people love "easy" and avoid its opposite) and reduce the number killed per incident, but we are too stupid to do anything about it.

The act of the christian fundamentalists, second stupidest group of people on earth after the islamic fundamentalists, blaming mass killings on a societal abandonment of god, a dereliction of duty to an ancient book written by goat herders, is merely an illustration of our inability to deal thoughtfully with the problem.

The folks who think a more watchful, more attentive and caring mental health system could help are at least attempting to think, but it's hopeless: we have demonstrated pretty conclusively (as have many societies) that we as a society don't care enough about this to spend any money on it. We'll spend on the pharmaceuticals because pills are easy and the pill companies are free enterprise - but not on care.

This sort of event is inevitable. We will not do anything to reduce their frequency or number of deaths involved. We have come to accept choices that promote a very large number of preventable, unnecessary deaths.

Islam, christians, or any other religion was invented by control freaks so they could rule through fear & ignorance. History it self proves this.

As for blaming what happen in Colorado on anyone or anything else except the killer is ignornace at it's finest & the main core of our failing justice system which places killers & rapist above common citizens.

First of all my condolences to the loved ones of those who died and were injured in this evil act . I pray you find piece and forgiveness in your heart.

Sorry but I blame Darwin, I blame O'hare, I blame all who have turned men into animals. You can say what you want but the thought of there being a afterlife and judgement after you die keeps many from the debts of depression and destruction no matter whether against themselves or others. I profess to be a Christian and the teachings I have accepted as fact really do keep me from insanity. I accept that God punishes his children in the here and now for their transgressions. I also accept the fact that there is Satan and he dwells in mens hearts and minds to cause them to continually do evil, evil things, because of their disbelief. When you open your eyes and confront the evil that happens every second of the day, indiscrible things that human beings do to other human beings, if all you have to look forward to is death and nothing else then nothing you do in life means anything, so what difference does it make if a person destroys other people, even children of which is happening every single day. I really believe that it is a very ignorant human being who does not believe in God and the creation. I am convinced that they use their unbelief to justify their own evil.

jerry: " if all you have to look forward to is death and nothing else then nothing you do in life means anything"

What an incredibly stupid and offensive thing to say. Our life means what we make it mean.

If a truthful explaination ever does come about it will be through a scientific investigation, not from a self-serving moralist.

We used say things like, "He just snapped". And that sums up what happened as well as anything.

In our country today, all we have to offer the victims and their survivors is talk and blame. Nothing will actually be done to stop these horrible, preventable acts from happening again in the future.

But ask yourself, who is allowing the evil? Its not God.

I dunno that anyone is allowing it (at least not in this situation, there are of course more obvious examples).

Sometimes evil exists no matter what you do. One could say it's tied indelibly to being human.

Jerry - your argument might not be complete @!$%# (it'd still be pretty bad) if no one had ever killed in the name of God or religion. Men who most definitely believed in an afterlife have done horrendous things to other human beings.

Also no one turned anyone into an animal. That we evolved from lower primates has nothing to do with how we act today. Most other animals lack our self awareness, our conscience, or ability to discern good from bad. You realize that contemporary man is also part of evolution, right? What we've become matters as much, or more, than where we came from. That our forefathers swung from trees several million years ago is no excuse for actions such as these, nor would anyone scientifically inclined present it as such.

Man is not reduced by a greater understanding of itself. Quite the opposite.

Why does religion need to take the blame for this?

Blaming religion? Read the article. 90% of it are Christian leaders blaming everything-which-isn't-christian... for what happened. Only a small portion depicts some atheist bloggers blaming the religious mindset for enabling such behaviour - Yet the Christians have Congressional Representatives and leaders of groups like the AFA blaming non-judeo-christianity for this. Hell, one of them blames teaching biology (evolution) to students as being a factor to blame, so give me a break on this whole "don't blame religion" crap. Sure, there might be some atheists out there spinning this, but those doing it are nothing close to government officials and mainstream lobbyists.

Kaybeetoys has it right.

Blame violent movies, video games and a cultural mythology that glorifies violence. Then, you need to blame lax gun laws. NO ONE should be able to buy an assault rifle or a 100-round magazine. Those should be restricted to law enforcement and the military.

NO ONE needs to own DOZENS of handguns, shotguns and rifles unless they are a federally licensed firearms collector, dealer or a museum.

It should be obvious by now that our "gun culture" is out of control.

I AM A GUN OWNER. I AM LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINED AND CERTIFIED in the proper use of handguns, shotguns and assault rifles. I have owned LOTS of guns when they were a part of my professional life. Now, I own a single handgun, a GLOCK model 23 in .40 caliber. That's all I need. That's all ANYBODY should need. AND I HAVE BEEN PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED and qualified in it's use.

That's it, that's all anyone should be able to own with the exceptions above noted.

It wasn't GOD or GODLESSNESS that caused the horror in Aurora Colorado. It was the Video Game makers, the movie makers and spineless politicians who will not act to curb gun ownership. Not ELIMINATE gun ownership, just regulate and reduce the numbers of guns in circulation.

NOBODY needs an ARSENAL to protect their home or their second amendment rights.

NOBODY should be able to purchase a gun unless they have been thoroughly vetted and properly trained in it's handling and use.

PERIOD.

"God created man in his image and gave us the choice of good or evil". This is a simple minded cop out, generic, worthless response to everything.

We are asked to believe in something we have never seen. Instead of humans being responsible for humans there has to be a god involved somehow. Wouldn't the actual presence of "God", a quick speech from above, a photo op, not a sign, not interpretation of 3000 year old writings but an actual quick hello from God change the way we think permanently? Why play a game when we all know that if we all know it as fact things might actually change?

I'm sure god has the ultimate computer system with amazing broadband. Run a quick slide-show or YouTube video showing heaven and hell so you can prove why good pays and the suffering you will actually go through if you are evil? Let us see where the billions of people that have died over the centuries actually reside now. All this time and there has been absolutely no proof whatsover. All we have is what was written so long ago and near death experiences which are going to be scewed by the subconcious which has these memories.

I have finally gotten over the mental anguish of growing up a practicing catholic. The way they scared me half to death believing that if I even said the wrong word my soul would burn for eternity unless I told another man wearing a white collar what I did wrong. It truly affected me and it wasn't in a positive way. I went to Sunday school being taught what a loving god we have but then the contradiction that if I wasn't perfect I could go to hell and this was said more than the loving part because if you plant it in a child's head you might have another life long person added to your cult.

Another thing, what happens if this kid comes out and says he did it for his god, then what do you say? He misunderstood the teachings? He's just crazy?

Religion always has a neutral way of wording things so it can always be twisted into a positive when they need it.

How about the simple argument, if we evolved from apes why are there still apes? If we have to answer that then answer this, if one god created all of this, why is there so many gods? Who is worshipping the correct one? How far are you willing to go to make sure it is your god we believe in?

News flash----there are crazy people in the world. There are functioning and non-functioning crazies in this world. There are people that will do evil things without provocation. Billions of cells in the human body and it only takes a couple of them being off ever so slightly and what we see as evil they see as normal. Not to mention people like Hitler, Hussein and every other evil dictator over the years. These men did what they did based on their religious beliefs and what they felt was right. They were in a place of power affecting millions of people yet there wasn't a god stepping in and putting his/her foot down and ending it before a lot of innocent people died. Does this mean the dictators were right? Based on what I interpret as right and wrong, absolutely not.

"When students are taught they are no different from animals, they act like it," Rick Warren, the mega-church pastor and inspirational author, observed in a Twitter update just hours after the shootings.

Animals don't do crap like this.

Yes animals do do crap like this, a lion will attack and kill for no reason even if it is not hungry. A chimpansie will kill another monkey and consume it even though it is a vegetarian. That is not the answer, evil exist because Satan exist, that is the only viable explanation. You cannot explain murder without going to the Bible where it first began and it was because of jealousy one brother murdering another. Yea, glad to hear man evolved from apes swing around in trees. My problem with that is WHY are there still apes swinging around in trees. What was so special about mans so call ancestor ape that all of a sudden thousands of years ago it started to not swing around in trees. Evolution is a lie and cannot be proven. Yes animals as well as human beings adapt to their surrondings. If I lived on a island then my trade would be fishing, move me to land without fish but warm blooded animals then I would resort to hunting. Every day from the day I was born I am taught to do things and learn to do new things each day to help me in life, that is not evolution. I choose to believe in something unseen but felt in my very being than coming from slime out of the swamp or an ape who swings fro a tree. Instead of stupid is as stupid does it should be stupid is as stupid thinks. Face it evil cannot be explained in any term except coming from a evil creature that was banned from heaven because of his jealousy and thrist for power. And for all you who would say why did not God just destroy Satan, it's quite simple really, its because he did not want to. He is after all GOD.

Brownsbacker, in all your comment I did not read a single explanation as to why evil exist. You say it has to do with genes, that is not an explanation but a copout since that cannot be proved either. You cannot explain why a mother who has two children and all of a sudden decided to take the life of one of them, or a husband who for no apparent reason takes the life of his whole family, sure you can say they did it because of a certain bad thing in their life. But them how do you explain millions of people who have devastating things happen in their life but do not go to such extremes.

Yes animals do do crap like this, a lion will attack and kill for no reason even if it is not hungry. A chimpansie will kill another monkey and consume it even though it is a vegetarian.

Jerry, if a chimpanzee, or a gorilla for that matter, is eating monkeys, obviously they are not strict vegetarians. I think we know chimps and gorillas are omnivorous. As to lions, they will kill something and then go back and eat it later. It might be opportunistic, but not for no reason, and definitely not for fame.

That is not the answer, evil exist because Satan exist, that is the only viable explanation. You cannot explain murder without going to the Bible where it first began and it was because of jealousy one brother murdering another.

Yes, evil exists because one brother is jealous of another. Man covets and starts evil. Man, humans, woman, people, etc. It's all about people. We don't need an outside source to spark it, aka Satan. We can be bad on our own.

Yea, glad to hear man evolved from apes swing around in trees. My problem with that is WHY are there still apes swinging around in trees. What was so special about mans so call ancestor ape that all of a sudden thousands of years ago it started to not swing around in trees. Evolution is a lie and cannot be proven.

We do we have wolves, coyotes and foxes? Why do we have lions and tigers and cheatahs and bobcats and housecats? Because each one fills a different niche. Orangatans, chimpanzees, gorillas, bonobos and humans fill different niches.

Yes animals as well as human beings adapt to their surrondings. If I lived on a island then my trade would be fishing, move me to land without fish but warm blooded animals then I would resort to hunting. Every day from the day I was born I am taught to do things and learn to do new things each day to help me in life, that is not evolution.

Correct!! That is not evolution. Ten points for you.

I choose to believe in something unseen but felt in my very being than coming from slime out of the swamp or an ape who swings fro a tree. Instead of stupid is as stupid does it should be stupid is as stupid thinks.

Think as you will. No one can force you to learn. You have to be willing to learn. People fought the notion that the Earth revolved around the Sun. Guess what? The early church actually thought Galileo was correct, but they wanted him to discuss it in a theoretical context rather than fact, and he went right out and spoke of heliocentrism as fact. He was right, the Church knew it, but they were scared the dim witted common people would panic, or leave the church, if they knew the Earth were not the center of everything. Guess what religious leaders do today?

Face it evil cannot be explained in any term except coming from a evil creature that was banned from heaven because of his jealousy and thrist for power. And for all you who would say why did not God just destroy Satan, it's quite simple really, its because he did not want to. He is after all GOD.

Evil can be explained because the higher our intelligence gets, the more odd our behavior gets, to put it simply. Our brain power creates art and music, but that same brain power creates atrocities. Kind of a yin-yang thing.

Jerry:

And for all you who would say why did not God just destroy Satan, it's quite simple really, its because he did not want to. He is after all GOD.

So, god could have rid the world of satan, but didn't becaus, why? Because he wanted evil in the world. He desired to see all the suffering that satan could create. Is that what you're suggesting?

That is one malevolent deity.

Look up the research of Dr. James Fallon, neurologist at UC-Irvine, who has studied the brains of psychopaths for 20 years. One interesting thing he found is his own brain had activity markers of a psychopath but his upbringing was wonderful compared to those that committed heinous crimes like first degree murder or multiple murders. I suspect there is something in Holmes genes and brain as well as his family life that conditioned him to be a psychopathic killer. Holmes could have been physically and/or verbally abused throughout his whole life until he snapped. I just hope we can prevent this thing from happening again. Someone from Homeland Security should stepup and visit Dr. Fallon to get a plan to monitor individuals exiting high school and entering college for the markers of a psyhopath before another 20-25 year old snaps again. Maybe test students as early as 9th grade kind of like required immunizations for staying in public school.

Never the less, until society comes to terms with its sociopathic minority, there will not be much change of the "human condition".

FMRI brain scans during questions and visual stimulation pretty much will tell you who values human life and who does not value it.

I recognize there are some privacy issues involved. Perhaps a double blind testing can be provided to people who want to apply for jobs involving elevated power or responsibility.

The first wealth management bank that starts testing its brokers and can advertise that a "Bernie Madoff" could never work there will get my business.

The problem I have with religions is that they rely solely on the teaching of a centuries old book.

Whenever something gone wrong, they don't blame themselves, they shift the blame to some imaginary figure like the "devil" or "god". They failed to understand that it is the individual fault, and keep doing it over and over and over again.

If any of you read that "centuries old book" and embrace the moral code it instructs you to live by and then get everyone you know to do the same thing and then they in turn tell everyone they know, we will all be fine. I of course am talking about the Christian Bible. Before you bash it and dismiss it the least you could do is read it, both old and new testament. Then if you do not believe it needs to be or should be followed...read it again.

Ya see, people like to ignore the ten commandments, not just about not killing, but also the one about adultery, and stealing, and lying, and coveting, and worshiping false idols and all the mosaic laws as well. Then if we don't have a moral compass to lead us...where do we turn. Man isn't capable of good...look what just happened in Colorado! Look what happens in Chicago every weekend. We choose to disobey a whole slew of laws. My god, we even have a president that says he will not enforce laws we wanted on the books.

We do not get to pick and choose which laws we obey and don't abide. By doing that with mans law we are led into anarchy...by doing that with Gods laws we are led into hell...and we are nearing the cliff on both fronts.

Human beings live together in various types of societies, and so far there seems to be no system that produces only 'good' people.

Whatever the reasons behind the violence of James Holmes, there are surely others out there like him. All his gun purchases were made legally. Why are we making it so easy for the next guy who decides to commit mass murder?

Are we gonna have the TSA at movies now?

jim825

If any of you read that "centuries old book" and embrace the moral code it instructs you to live by and then get everyone you know to do the same thing and then they in turn tell everyone they know, we will all be fine. I of course am talking about the Christian Bible. Before you bash it and dismiss it the least you could do is read it, both old and new testament. Then if you do not believe it needs to be or should be followed...read it again.

If only it were that easy!! Surely James Holmes, a Christian, has read the bible and is very well acquainted with the Ten Commandments.

His religious teachings clearly did not prevent him from committing an act of monstrous evil.

Dennis Rader, the 'BTK' killer from Wichita, Kansas, was the president of the congregation council of his local Lutheran church.

There are countless other examples of Christians who broke every commandment in the book. It is not possible to control the mind of man with any book.

Clearly, religion is not an inoculation against evil. It is worse than naive to believe that reading the bible would make everyone good and moral. Morality is a choice, whether we have read the bible or not.

The right-wing's cutting of mental health program budgets on both the Federal and State levels will prove to be a grave mistake, even fatal.

What behavioral tools for assessment tests or psych measurements that can identify high neuroses or psychoses lurking in people being evaluated for these risks, are no longer being applied or available within the public health, particularly in places in the nation where the reduction of government services has become a right-wing trend.

Unfortunately, these places where the right-wing dominates, can expect more senseless, violent tragedies involving assault firearms and explosives ...and ever more religious prayer as their solution and healing balm to all of these preventable tragedies.

Jim, the Bible is a history book written by the victors and the victors knew how to control and manipulate people. There are all sorts of excellent rules in it but the general tone is to get people to be obedient and to accept abuse. Many of the prophesies in it sound like the promises politicians make to get in power but that never come about.

I have read the Bible and believe in God, that's why I believe the Bible is a lot of hogwash that have driven people mad generating violence from those who follow it. The Bible says in many places that it's followers will own everything and, in some places it says that other people are less than snakes to be stepped on. So, do you wonder why christian-judeo history is riddled with so much violence?

I agree with you, Sanescience, there needs to be psych evaluations for people in positions of power or in management.

Of course, the right-wing in Congress will be the first to vote against such mental health initiatives in the public interest. And the GOP Tea Party is responsible for cutting mental health program budgets on the state levels, as well.

http://www.google.be/search?q=GOP+cut+mental+health+budget&hl=nl&sourceid=gd&rlz=1D1GGLD_enUS484US485

WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE BRING RELIGION INTO THIS???

Insane, that's what they are and counting on the low IQ voters to buy into any of this BS.

What kind of idiot would even say teaching evolution causes mass murder?

Does he think the whole world are morons who hang on every prognostication of evangelical demons like himself!!

If he believes in God he needs to get down on his knees and ask for forgiveness for using this tragedy as his own soap box!!

Supposedly, this psycho's parents are Christian, with his father being very devout. This isn't about God or Darwin; this is about a psychopath. His brain wasn't wired normally. He's merely insane.

kaybeetoys,

Not only is religion not an inoculation against evil, it prevents us from understanding the world. You point out that morality is a choice. I think they'd agree with you, as long as we were talking about something bad that happened. Religion allows people to believe that God is all-powerful but bad things happen because God allows free choice. Also, if anything good happens, well that's not free choice it's God. This implies that evil only comes from free choice and that religion is your only source of good. Therefore we have these moron preachers and manipulative conservative politicians, who apparently are straight out of the dark-ages, saying the insane crap they're saying.

Rick Warren blamed the teaching of evolution for the mass-murders.

Rep. Gohmert from Texas blamed the 'attacks on Judeo-Christian beliefs" for the rampage.

Fred Jackson of the AFA blamed the 'lack of biblical principles' and everything from liberalism to secularism for it.

Now we have Jerry Newcombe, an Evangelical leader, saying that victims who weren't Christian are going to hell...

And what do atheists have? A few bloggers pointing to religious concepts of afterlife and redemption being condusive to things like this... that's it.

So there are Congressional Representives, Lobbyists, Mega-Church pastors all blaming secularism, science, and liberals.

-versus-

A few blogger atheists blaming a religious mindset for facilitating such actions.

Who is really under attack here?

I'm struggling with dyslexia, and my Agnosticism.

I don't know whether to believe in DOG, or not.

As for why he did it, I'd like to know if he was bullied as a child or hazed in college. That can give people crazy thoughts of revenge and may lead him to snap and act on his crazy thouoghts.

Why is God the only possible source of meaning? Can you confirm that some other possibility does not exist? Of course you can't. If we cannot understand God, then surely there could be something meaningful that we also do not understand.

Why does this have to be about God or Godlessness? Does this really have to be about religion or can it just be about a screwed up individual who obviously needed help and didn't know where to (or ask for/or even want) go to get it. I know that there is not saving all sickos but does that really have to spark a religion debate?

Each thing has enough "uniqueness" to be different from otherwise like things. Differences in these "unique's" are often as conflictive, as they are unifying.

The Human IS an animal. Humanzees are obligately communal, hierarchically organized mammals (see: mole rats) who, individually, are identical in every substantial way. The groups we constitute in our 'identities', such as America, France, China, Catholicism, Islam, are themselves organisms. However our hubristic fantasies may cause us to judge ourselves (See: Homo sapiens, Man the 'Wise' (sorry, Charlie...)), our external collective behavior is just one. We cannabalistically try to eat the group next to us. The Humanzee's only defining (exclusive) characteristic is the periodic, automatic, intramural mass murder of its cospecifics. This is more primitive even than slime molds, e.g. Dictyostelium. Historically, religion has had continual acknowledged responsibility for mass murder and for expungement, extinction, of entire identity groups from the human family.

To view oneself as an animal is an extremely difficult thing to do because it involves the loss of so much of one's original perceptual delusion. I doubt many people are capable of it. Animals other than Humanzees are more moral than the psychopaths designed into the Humanzee genepool and who are expressed in a 1:100 ratio of births. These are the people who stimulate and motivate the evil of war. But, if you can see yourself as an animal, a clonal community of cells, you have already passed through being able to perceive other humans as trivially different from yourself, regardless of their context. You can see their pain as your own, their troubles as your own, their needs and wants and desires and satisfactions. It sees through 'cultural differences' as if they were nonexistent. They are, except in the heads of those who can see only differences, a VERY narrow view. Details may differ slightly, and it this slight difference that normal Humanzees focus in on and magnify.

This will not sit well with some but, is this act by this man any different than bringing a Hellfire missile to a wedding? Ripping a lady's face off because of a benzodiazepine drug reaction (Xanax, side effect) called RAGE (Travis the Chimp)?

We don't know why this man did this. As a comment to the gun nots, if there had been someone in the audience packing, regardless of the 'armor', the shooter would have been knocked down and possibly tackled. What if guns had been unavailable to him and he chose Molotov cocktails or a C4 seasoned two gallon can of gasoline? America is changing. We are all angry but have yet to get focused on the cause of our discontent. This man seems to have been very bright, brighter than I am anyway, and I cannot hope to understand what he saw. I suspect that what he saw was so at odds with what he was, he completely lost his mental homeostasis. He already hated his world for however long he wished it ill through the 'bad guys' he admired. Neuroscience is a strange land. There is no hiding our 'animalness' in that world. Religion shows up, if it does, as an brain abscess on an MRI. I doubt the 'animalness' of man was responsible here.

It's so strange that the religious people are so quick to deny G-d's actual work, this world. All scientists do is to try to understand how G-d built it and how it works, one of the first instructions in Genesis, I believe. Books entirely of human origin and doubtful in much of what they say and completely self-serving in their suggested behaviors are more important than the Creation itself. And for completely selfish reasons, to save oneself from the anger of a 'loving' god. As an animal, it is possible to see how automatic and how primitive our behavior is, mating behavior being weaved into almost every aspect of behavior.

For the taken away, requiescate in pace eterna. For those who remain behind, my deepest apologies for my species' behavior and some small understanding of your profound grief. Please know that you all were certainly in their thoughts and they grieved you in that last instant as much as you grieve them now. The blackness will dim and light will return slowly and you will be able to remember them and their smiles without falling into the pit once again. Look to that. There IS a future.

Let us hope that this event is not used to tighten even more our sense of imprisonment which will only create more events like this. Someday we may understand why a mind veers into complete disarray and hurtful behavior. We do not now have such understanding and delusional perceptions of ourselves will only delay such understanding. We are organized monkeys. Per capita, this kind of attack probably happened more often when some brooding male out on the savannah suddenly attacked his own family group or a group of nordics locked up together for almost an entire winter decide to see who really IS chief (see: Jane Goodall). Being an animal is a lot more complicated than being a 'human'. It will not make sense to you unless you have studied the details of g-d's WORK. That we are an image of g-d exists only in those books. We are almost an infinity away from g-d. Yet. We may be part of the seed of g-d as we continue to accrete data and grow and meld with other life forms. Eventually all of the data of the Universe will be integrated into consciousness. What then? But we are living in the Meso-archean of that time, tiny little entities called genepools rolling through time in the structures of their constantly regenerating individual organisms, a multitude of temporal pseudopods arising, sprouting new ones, and being resorbed. Us.

Time to die.

Ragnarok.

Occam's Razor folks. The shooter is mentally disturbed. No god is necessary to explain this.

@William Bjornson, Aloha,Orygun#3.8: A multitude of "maybe's". A better than average compilation of "could be's". Thanks

@ Alan Boyle

You'll want to read the whole essay if you haven't already. I realize the "easy" answer is that there is no God, no meaning. But I admire people who struggle with the harder answers.

People who struggle with the harder answers? I don't understand Alan. A guy with some sort of mental issues walks into a crowded theater and shoots it up. The smirk on his mug, and his statement that he's "The Joker" obviously portends towards some evil instability in his thinking at the time of the shooting.

The stupidity and evil that people are capable of is offset by the intelligence and good behaviors other set. We'd like to believe that everyone is capable of making good decisions and working towards the betterment of mankind; but then we're left with this genetic travesty that is known as James Eagan Holmes.

Regrettably, things like this happen. Anytime you have 4-6 Billion people gathered on a single planet, randomness and chance is at play and you're going to see a lot of both good and evil behaviors with a whole range of variations and extremes between these two poles.

I think if we were looking for the hard answers, those answers won't lay within the religious or non-religious realms. I think it has more to do with the way the media turns every evil act into a three-ring circus, and the perpetrator of the act turns into an evil star for a short amount of time. Sometimes, people will commit the most heinous acts simply in exchange for a little bit of fame.

It's unfortunate that those religious minded folk see tragedies like this as a fertile ground to try and push their own agenda. Perhaps that's a little bit more of the extreme behavior that we humans are capable of engaging in.

Occam's Razor folks. The shooter is mentally disturbed. No god is necessary to explain this.

Good thing -- sine it's mostly BuyBull cultists yakking about this, and none of them haev ever been able to prove their cult's BuyBull-god exists.

It's unfortunate that those religious minded folk see tragedies like this as a fertile ground to try and push their own agenda. Perhaps that's a little bit more of the extreme behavior that we humans are capable of engaging in.

It never stops with the religious. they feel that every tragedy is their soap box, their opportunity to preach and demand that people hand-mumble to their cult god. Nothing but ignorant, mindless nonsense.

Trying to find rational reasons for irrational acts is a natural human emotional response to calamity.

Whether it's a large scale loss like this incident or the death of a loved one the reaction is pretty much the same. We assume and and seek order while fearing chaos and randomness. When we are confronted with irrational violence we immediately begin trying to re-establish order by rationalizing; it's a survival mechanism and the content of the rationalizations whether superstitious or science based is irrelevant.

But no matter, the basis of the reality is tragic loss and I feel tremendous pain and empathy for the families and friends of those who were maimed and killed by such a senseless situation.

It's about meaning. Whenever something in reality that we find disturbing and cannot resolve due to the self, we feel outrage, perhaps a bit of indignation, and sadness. Others may have a different range of emotions, from curiosity or secret pleasure, and so forth. This is the quest for meaning when knowledge or what we beleive to be happening, does not confrom to our being or sensibilities, it doesnt justify our being. Instead, it seems to run in direct opposition to our being..something oh something tells me we are more than just animals.....why do you think you have an emotional or ego based response to this event in the first place, because there is a semantic or meaning transfer in this exchange. It is metaphysical, and its also intertwined with evolution,

reality, from what I have gathered In insight, iis a lot more complicated than the bible or Darwin's "origin iof species" reality acts as a self aware information organism whose paradigm iterates and gains meaning in certain ways depending on the level of complexity, When it reaches a point where the universe becomes self aware of itself (us) , intelligence starts dictating or being a co author in what many Beleive to b simply be random chance, or evolution. For the first time, an awareness comes about that requires justification for it's existence...why am I ugly and this girl pretty, why do I have to put up with all this s h I t at work while this guy enjoys a life of leisure and apparent bliss?

In short, intelligence then tries to justify existence and the ideal or self righteous thought is born.., no, things should be THIS way, this is not FAIR....F uck society, I've put up with all this @!$%# and I STILL have no friends and no girlfriend, f u ck this, it doesn't mean anything..,,Imma go in a blast of glory and have some fun while i kick it,,,these are thoughts of the collective mind.
They are not foreign or evil, but an all so common indignation in the face of uncertainty and apparent hopelessness.

Man, then, creates what is described in the bible the I am not to cope with this internal conflict of his, morality is born, I am this, but. I am NOT this....,as such, he partitions the infinity of the singularity and takes away from its infinite essence, getting away from truth and clinging to falsehood and judgment. In turn, the state being the monopoly that arbitrates all judgment in society, as all judgmental inevitably is arbitrated by the state, then acts (and the politician that espouses it) as the inner projection of the perfect ideal in the psyche.l...the state then acts as the bureacracy of the collective subconcious mind, as it projects it "paints" the all so necessary fantasy the ego craves by arbitrating this judgment, the "perfect man" the "god on earth" ...the king.

This must exist as a direct mathematical consequence of the intelligence's inner conflict, otherwise it cannot reconcile and justify its own existence, and intelligence becomes inimical to life. Evolution is what gave birth to these notions, for meaning, for intelligence could not reconcile the conflict and to justify its own existence, it needed an outside arbiter to manage its affairs.....

It is the paradox if free will, another thing described in the multiple infinite truths of the higher dimensional language found in the bible..,you do have free will, but precisely because you do, you will be yourself, so it is not free will for being who you are is a guvrbm but because it is free will, you can also choose to go against yourself. However, whenever you choose to relinquish being or sacrifice...,being...in exchange for an ideal for meaning you actually relinquish freedom in an ever oppressive state who must administer these affairs on your behalf, but if you are just yourself and not tied to fear or inner conflict, then you have more freedom, but you are being yourself. So it is a paradox, because being who you are as the utilitarian "end of history" is not a choice (for it is optimal) yet if you choose to go against yourself by exercising free will, you actually religuish freedom by sacrificing your being for an ideal which then must be administered by an outside force, like the state.

So in order for us the exist..the meaning needed to be administered because without it there would be no purpose to our existence (then, I'll get to that in a moment) . This allowed a slightly biased and incestual evolution (selecting followers and aggressive leaders) but natural law being absolute, it allowed for those who saw beyond it to act accordingly to survive (even though being of a higher mind) and those with the conflict to have meaning, so a civilization could perpetuate and intelligence could self justify. So it doesn't matter what the criteria set for selection by the collective is in other words (the mental intelligence like skynet), for people would fake allegiance to a doctrine if it meant their survival, so natural law would still be in effect,

Knowledge would then increase, and the corresponding intelligence or ego that regulates evolution along with natural law would become more complex accordingly, from ethics, to scientific rationalism, the enlightenment, John locke, separation of powers to make the intelligence more reflective of natural law and utilitarian outcomes through indifferent legislation all the way to the present day....of the Internet, porn, Facebook and the collective ego constantly measuring the ever so growing stick.

We can start getting into what I refer to "unity conciousness" when the tree of knowledge gets really complex then you can reach the higher truths, these truths are metaphysical truisms and it can bring peace to the individual as these truths "feed" the being of the person who sees them. You realize that ego is falsehood and a limited mental construct that does not feed being but partitions it due to its limited nature until exhaustion or death, and that this is what lead to our divided self that sought refuge in the tree of knowledge and outside arbiters to justify its existence. While life is an infinity that iterates on greater awareness, lower problems from past paradigms being "resolved" once an extra "mirror" is placed for it to see itself through anther perspective, and in this awareness, cancel out the self contradictory behaviour (this happens in disease btw) that lead to the problem. Basically that security does not come from knowledge but being (which paradoxically comes from this knowledge) and that being yourself is what feeds your true quest for meaning, it stops being how to be or should be and just is. Intelligence when it gets rid of the ego, is then content with just being.

Now, the implications for this particular tragedy is, people are looking for meaning out of what they see as meaningless, so they seek a certain truth in the tree of knowledge..,be it Darwin, or the bible, so that they can know ..lHOW to be....the I am not......the truth is that there is no intrinsic meaning to what happened in the theater....the guy probably wanted to kick the can and so..,he just chose a theater, neither is it especially morally despjcable behaviour although socially reprehensible, a lot of society has people that all they want to do is amass power and money, these are simply different impulses to intelligence coping with existence.

However, you know everyone is thinking the same way...,and you know that even if no god existed.....yes, it would be unfair, it would have very little purpose.l...but you KNOW there is something more to these feelings and self awareness than just an animal,,,,don't look for knowledge or outside for self justification......you know that even if it's unfair, life itself, is miraculous...,the self awareness and the beauty we can observe on one day as those radiant rays from the sun dapple through the leaves into our inner world of contemplation......is more than all the machines, inventions and moral edicts ever devised by man combined....and you know it....

For we are more than just an animal, we are cosmic participants in the cosmic dialogue,,..we are not deterministic links in a chain but co creators that define and maintain the universe...

And of course there is a god, and of course there is meaning....but it is the meaning of the inner self resonating with the outer as you come into being...the ism of your core truth resonating with the totality as you are by what you are not...The feeling of transference as you open a door for someone and you see yourself through the persons eyes and the person through yours (I know that you know that I know)' it is creating an Infinity out of something that did not exist previously through YOUR OWN doing.

For god does exist but he comes through being...not expectation or idealism.

He is not an outside being (even through god is a being that is also separate even though as an infinity he emanates and emerges from all sentient life forms in the uni-verse)

God cannot be a separate being because metaphysically it would not allow for our own growth, for merging with god is our evolutionary future,

Intervening would lead to a game if expectations where the human would become complascent and never reach a point of merger, like ripples in a pond, god would try to correct for one thing here, another thing theremin and before you know it it would only be a mirror.

For when one thing is done, then an expectation is created where something else in another case must be done..until all the inconsistencies would have to balance and humanity would have no free will and cease to be,
God is the omega point, it is our future, yet as the wave function of the universe, it happens at every moment of the universe,

But metaphysically, even if there wasn't, life would be infinitely unfair but one day in nature and contemplating existence would be infinitely beautiful. As a cosmic participant, it is up to you what to make of it, because you are god, Perhaps a lack of meaning will lead to judgment day...apocalypse after all does mean revealing,,,,,and paradox or free will is the Antichrist.....

You could be this guy, and take the lives of people in a theater, or you could see someone like yourself...l.,and want to give them meaning where you had none.....

It would be unfair and there would be no purpose to existence but what you make of it.
But, I will present you some insight below which leads me to beleive there is in fact, an afterlife, and a god, come to your own conclusions.

One thing is certain, depending on how we think reality operates based in the tree of knowledge or our own insight, this can dictate one form of behaviour or another. But the true godhood on earth, is the guy that doesn't know the higher truths, yet knows how all seek meaning, but instead of sinking into desperation or quitting (like the man above), he decides to create meaning....by his own will....you will find such things come with more power than will.,lbut for brevity, I'll post the link below,

Come to your own conclusions, have a good day.

/doc/99429019/God-and-the-ism

Scribd

Of course, the old one (better written, horrible presentation above but it explains things in more detail):

/forum1/message1918910/pg1
Godlikeproductions

Again, this truth is irrespective of me, or what I would like to be, how I think things should be or this tragedy. I only know that all have their own meaning and the more we try to satisfy this in others, the more existence itself becomes meaningful and beautiful. But it just happens to be what I beleive, irrespective of how it relates to me, and my self, my own existence.

I may wither and die, and never be concious again, it does not matter...For I exist and I am, and these truths just happen to be what I Beleive. It will be done, and according to my word it is, amen.. Enough said.

MdmdDd,

Interesting post.

I agree Md. We make our lives meaningful.

Your entitled to your own opinion Boil I laugh at people like you when your time comes its always "Oh no, dear God".

then you better be a kinder man than boyle- that's what god cares about-

judge not somebody said

There is also an interesting post about this, by an atheist

"if god does not exist, then there is a necessity to invent him"

For what man can imagine in his mind but does not currently embody, is his future. For If it is in our mind, it will be, and if it will be, it already is.

Something like that.

It shows you even without my detailed arguments, that even if an afterlife through the quantum or a cosmic mind did not exist...we would be destined to become it....

And if we are destined to become it, then it makes sense it already exists (universes wave function, omega point, other "alien" civilizations, etc)
Because man always wants to transcend his limitations, and as the highest mental construct he has dominion over the more bounded fixed rules....like a programmer he can change it.l.jusy as we gain more knowledge of biology, for example, we can control it, and any game in game theory once you know the optimum strategy it becomes meaningless to play for both opponents are of the same mind..then eventually we will take advantage of small discrepancies say if f=ma....and use the information to our advantage and cause great change on the macro. It won't be about energy because our added sensitivity to these small effects which have enormous dominion over the macro will act as a catalyst, so the universe becomes more about informaiton and less about energy. Once conciousness is simulated on the micro and we can do at will, then since the wave function of the universe is time independent we will exist at an omega point at every moment and share thoughts quite easily, so the difference between you and me becomes less defined (a technological analogue would be a neural Internet, just for explanatory purposes) so if you continue this upward and constant improvement and embodiment and taming of entropy, you will get to the 13th dimensional level where everything merges into one, one totaliy and conciousness, which is of course god,

Chaos and order would then become superimposed because it would only be chaotic depending on your level of perspective (light quotient, more information, and so forth) and a high entropy environment like a black hole could "simulate" the most order. Eventually infinite randomness and infinite complexity merge into one, which is the god mind.

In essence, all of our conciousness originates from a simple iterative process found everywhere in nature....similar to entanglement, your conciousness is more than just your individually, principle of correspondence in information theory, so the process by which it is being simulated has a "code" on the quantum...just like the further you look in the planck more "connections" are made amongst particles until it looks like one giant higher dimensional geometric super structure.

eli 8.The deeper you look, the more you see an infinite possible truths that are all simultaneously true given a perspective and the more unity. Conciousness is the same.

Soooo... ummmm.... there was a guy on the way out with a clicker or something counting down all the religeons present at that particular thearter that night right? No no I'm sure that the only religeon present there were christians.... I'm positive... Here's the point... You never see those crazy Jews or Bhuddist or even Islamists out there blaming senseless murders on their lack of a following or "counter-intuitive" teachings at public schools. And shoot there may be wars in the middle east and all over the world over religeon but I haven't read anything yet, aside from postings from christians, that has the balls to blame the lack of belief in them on a bombing or a murder which happen far more often to them. This is wild... this kind of thing has been going on as long as we've had motor functions yet somehow religeon, or lack there of, has anything to do with what happened in colorado.... NEWSFLASH FOLKS NO ONE'S GOD SHOWED UP THAT NIGHT FOR ANY REASON, MALEVOLENT OR OTHERWISE! But always good to see some idiots jockeying their god on the tails of something vile. Rally the troops Daniel and Jacob and grab that stack of evangelical pamphlets... theres some people being killed whose deaths we can use to spread Jesus...

Lusitania:

I laugh at people like you when your time comes

You are quite possibly very, very ill. Taking pleasure in the death of others is quite probably one or two steps away from, y'know, mass murder time.

Please seek help.

But.. but.. aren't video games, Ozzy, and Dungeons and Dragons to blame?

The monster that committed these murders is to blame for his actions; and prob ably is insane, as no sane person could do this. As we see crazy people doing incredible violence, I have tow wonder why is it so easy for them to assemble the weapons they used to commit these crimes?

I support second amendment rights, but do people really need assault weapons with 100 round clips? Does any private citizen need the kind of equipment he carried into the theater, or left in his apartment? I have seen comments that he could have used a knife, or a bottle of gasoline if he could not have bought all these guns; but he would have done a lot less damage with a knife or a bottle of gas. In a world full of crazies, do we need to make it so easy for them to do so much damage?

Jeff and Steve, what if he was just born to be a violent person (as in he was genetically predisposed to it)? He didn't choose to be born this way, but it caused him to do this. Would you still blame him?

@umbraobscura

Are you suggesting an "evil genes" now?

If he was born with a chemical imbalance, then everyone would know about it at early age.

However, if you are talking about religious standpoint, isn't this the fault of god since he/she created everything including him.

@cuong

Yes, I am suggesting that violence can be encoded genetically (although I refrain from calling it the "evil gene" because I don't think good and evil are as black and white as most people make them out to be). And no, this isn't something that most people test for at birth (I'm not even sure it is feasible to test every strand of DNA to find behavioral genes). I am not making any religious commentary.

Returning to my question, if someone was born to be a violent person (they didn't have a choice in the matter), then would you hold them responsible for their violent actions?

A comment on the shooter's 'insanity'. I am reminded of the trial of the four Mormon killers who slit the throat of an infant during a rampage against some local apostates. They claimed to be acting on revelations they had received from God. Their defense argued that they must be insane, because they believed they were talking to a spirit entity.

This became problematic when it was pointed out that roughly 2/3 of our entire population believe that they or someone they know are in daily communication with spirits, most of them with the 'supreme' spirit who created the entire universe.

Is it politically incorrect to point out that so far, in this new century, our beautiful, free, shining 'city on the hill' country full of good people, is in the lead in the global killing of civilians? Or that our national murder rate is many times greater than the next contender? Our culture is today awash in violence, hatred, lethal weaponry and a studied callousness about the welfare of others; the by-products of religious zealotry, narcissism and greed. How can we be so surprised when a narcissist callously uses lethal weaponry to create violence?

I'd also call the shooter insane, just like I'd call the mormon killers insane. Unfortunately for us, insanity is normal.

umbraobscura,

I think that's a very good question. I don't know the objective answer, but, in my opinion, we should all be held accountable for our violent actions. Just as we are held accountable for any criminal action (and all violence is criminal (except for entertainment, sporting or defence purposes)).

If someone is predisposed to violence, and they cannot control their impulses, then they have no place in a civilised society (except for entertainment, sporting or defence purposes).

So true, shrekk. So true.

Funny how you stop by here George Holmes , possibly believing what you said ...."LOL"

Good post.

But while the violent "media" is part of the feedback loop to be sure but it is not the root cause of the escalation in violence anymore than porn causes rape, study after study has shown there is no valid correlation.

I would assert that the propensity for human violence is the same as it always has been, but the reporting, and hence or awareness of it as it occurs, is much more widespread and immediate than it has ever been.

Our streets in reality are no more dangerous to walk than they were 20 years ago, but our perception of them has changed by way of the widespread reporting of disparate incidental violent acts that get rolled up into an overall sense that violence is everywhere all the time. It isn't, but it feels that way. In reality, the FBI reports that violence has been decreasing over the last 20 years.

Violence and danger generate fear and a rush of physical and emotional excitement that puts the brain into emergency mode and heightens the perception of being alive. Some people, like skydivers become addicted to that rush and some, like soldiers traumatized by combat, are victims to it.

Most of us enjoy that violence and danger rush at a distant safe in the comfort of our structured environment like a theatre or our couch at home. like any other titillation, constant exposure will cause us to become inured and we will then seek out an increase in the level of stimulation, we will demand ever bigger special effects and wider, more intense reporting.

So the fault lies lies not with the reporting per se or our misconceptions of how it might be causing an increase in actual violence, but rather in our own personal "addictions" to the reporting and our lack of ability to consciously unplug from the incessant stimulus.

One has to search no further than the myriad of young males that rush to the fore to insist if more people had guns this would never happen. It is folly to imagine that a theatre of gun toting vigilante would have affected anything other than a dozen more dead.

Even the police struggle in these types of situations and they are trained to handle them. What we clearly do not need is a group of individuals imagining they are in a real life version of Halo.

Our streets are in reality no more dangerous to walk than they were 20 years ago? Tell that to the families of the children killed every week in Chicago. Children killed playing in their own yards, bullets coming through windows and hitting children watching television. Their own homes aren't even safe to sit in, let alone walking the street. Apparently our society's cures of "opening a dialog on the subject" and "raising awareness on the issue" have yielded the same results as always- nothing.

tiny,

My comment was referencing the general not specific hot spots like Chicago gang neighborhoods. But I was raised in Detroit and ghetto neighborhoods were dangerous then too...are they more dangerous today? I don't think so.

you assume the apes haven't already been influenced by human behavior- google

100th monkey theory

Karen - I agree that religion had nothing to do with it. It doesn't stop the religious talking heads from blaming science or anything else they don't embrace for it. I consider religion to be man's most dangerous invention.

Re: your comment about being able to plan things even if mentally ill, I also agree. There's a very old joke about a man with a flat tire in front of a mental institution who loses his lug nuts. The patient on the other side of the fence suggests that he take one from each of the other wheels to get going. The drivers asks what he's doing in there. The man responds, I'm crazy, not stupid.

Mass murderers rarely fall within the parameters of clinical mental illness. It is easier to blame it on mental illness than any other cause, but that doesn't necessarily make it so. Revenge is the most common motivator for the mass murderer.

I believe he's been referred.

Revenge against innocent strangers is a mental illness. Paranoid psychopath.

Don't be so quick to assign mental illness. The man may have been angry. He may have been desensitized to violence and he may have be alienated. What you have is an individual that needed attention. Why? It's difficult to guess what makes a person do something like this but don't automatically give him the "get out of jail free" card by saying he is mentally ill. It sounds as if he was in his perfectly correct mind. Don't for a moment imagine a person in their "right mind" can't shoot a theatre full of people. The military do it every day.

Just a small point here Karen. He is not a loner. A loner is one who shuns attention and would be horrified at the idea of seeking it. Whatever else is true or not it's obvious this guy wanted to be known and seen. I firmly believe he is mentally abnormal simply because I believe his act was by definition abnormal.

I once read a book about suicide that made this suggestion (I paraphrase):

By the very act of taking his life, a person has proven he is mentally deranged.

I think the same applies here: the moment he decided that it was a good idea to walk into a movie theatre and open fire, he proved that he was, in some way, mentally deranged. Was it insanity?

I'm no psychologist.

the problem with intelligent design is the overarching claim of order when a lot of what is observed in fact seems disordered.

Are you saying that intelligent design is more entropic than natural selection?

You can't have order without disorder.
They are two sides of the same spinning coin.

I spend hours and hours building a perfect sand castle and then stand back and watch the tide come in to undo all that order I built, knowing the tide itself is a product of gravitational order.
Once we accept the ephemeral nature of our being and realize that change is the only true constant, disorder is not seen as the "enemy".

Shake that etch-a-sketch, lord, and free me to move on.

How about this? God, a lonely being, yes lonely, he was the only one in an empty universe, decides to do something to break the boredom. He starts creating the universe we know in a hit and miss faction. Why like this? He was bored, poor guy, if he knew everything that is and is to be then he must be going out of his gourd. That is why there is evidence of evolution. He tried the dinosaurs but they did not work out, so he designed the animal kingdom we have now. We do not see him probably because we are afraid to do so.

Jibaro,

The loneliness function as a reason for God creating the universe struck me back in the 70's. I was using the mantra "all one, alone" as a meditation. It occurred to me that "alone" is a contraction of "all one". The trick in creating an actual "other" if you are the sole entity is hard to imagine since everything created would be a part of the creator...the only way it would work at all is if God kept a secret from himself about the nature of his creation and instilled it with the appearance of free will or free agency.

It then struck me that it was pretty weird to be a God demanding that the clones he created worship and love him. Now there's good cause for a few therapy sessions.

Eventually I realized the folly of it all and threw my chickens in the air to see what would happen. Now I am an atheist and couldn't be happier.

So it goes.

Ever hear about multiple personality disorder? The multiple personalities are not conscious of each other. As for worship, the churches are the ones talking about worship. They say they speak for God but they wouldn't know him if he walked in through the door. Probably say he was the devil.

One more weird thing, I logged off and turned, shut down explorer and left my computer on hibernate. Came back about an hour later to [play a game but when I activated the computer it opened in this page. Weir, ha.

Doesn't matter how many gun control laws there are, these things would still happen. Maybe you will remember the guy who drove his car into a bunch of kids on a playground. Or the guy who threw gasoline on some people and lit them up. Probably not. Didn't get that much coveage by the media. Guess it's ok to kill or wound a bunch of people as long as you don't use a gun.

30,000+ people die in the US every year from gun violence of all types. Statistics do not suggest similar numbers of people lose their lives each year from fire, knives, and clubs. The hard fact is that firearms are designed to be deadly weapons and they are too often owned by people who shouldn't have them. Gun control needs to be discussed rationally and openly by citizens and legislators alike. Clearly, this sort of unrestrained carnage needs to be stopped.

The largest mass murder in the US was done by a jilted lover with a gallon of gasoline and a nightclub that locked its emergency exits.

The stats of your uncredited murder still do not add up to the vast bloodbath that is being visited upon our country by gun-wielding psychos.

Happy Land arson/mass murder, Bronx NY, March 25, 1990. 87 people were killed when jilted Julio Gonzalez torched the club where his ex-lover worked.

Beverly Hills Supper Club, Southgate Kentucky, May 28, 1977. 165 dead, 200 injured.

Coconut Grove arson/murder, Boston Mass, 1942, 491 people killed.

These are just a few examples of mass murder which did not involve the use of firearms.

Just how to you propose we get guns out of the hands of "pyschos"? Guess that would create jobs, as we'd need a hell of a lot of people to do the interviewing.

Bluescat: for one, a red flag should be given to individuals who stockpile weapons, or individuals with mental health problems who try to buy weapons. California has some safeguards, but this individual moved to Colorado from California and was able to buy many weapons. A federal program is going to have to set limits on weapons, and that will be up to the voters to enact.

JCPCali:

Truly, one of the most ignorant statements I've seen recently.

There ARE rather strict gun control laws. Have you even bothered to learn what they are? They vary by state and at times municipality.

If you want to see how well very strict gun control laws work, check out Chicago - you're not even allowed to own one!

How's it working out for them there, hmmm?

I suggest you use the internet for educating yourself, rather that posting reactionary drivel concerning gun control.

And maybe, just maybe, start asking yourself what's driving people - yes, people - to do these things, and how can we as a society work to prevent them from doing so?

stageone

The cities with the lowest limits on gun ownership (zero) have most of the highest gun violence rates. Limiting ownership will not even put a dent in the problem as those who want guns will find a way to get them. If you limit gun ownership to, say, one gun, a madman could still kill a substantial number of people with a few of nine bullet clips.

JohnCarter, your desperate attempt to make three arson murders spanning a period of more than 60 years seem as widespread and deadly as gun violence has failed. When 30,000 people are killed in our country and many thousands more are wounded every year by firearms, the time is coming when our country will have to face the fact that access to these deadly weapons must be controlled.

Guess it's ok to kill or wound a bunch of people as long as you don't use a gun.

I have to wonder why the thumb-sucking gun-nuts can always be counted on to make stupid comments like this...

Reasons a plenty...

Assault rifle with extra large magazines....made for killing lots of people!

All dressed up for some hideous halloween killing event in his battle helmet..kevlar body armor...gas masks and tear gas...all the toys for killing and no one was the wiser????

Video games where you sit for hours doing what????

Look at his picture...crazy as a freaking loon...no one noticed...ever?????

I bet that Chicago's gun laws are not as strict as they are in Puerto Rico. I could not get a permit, though the life of my family was at risk, because I was not the head of household. Yet, if you live in Puerto Rico, you hear gun fire just about every night. Criminals have shoot outs in the middle of the street and, it's very common that Innocent people get killed in those confrontations. Not long ago the daughter of my cousin was killed with her boy friend because a criminal confused her car with the car of his target. The problem does not lie with gun control. Fact is that most of you don't know what a high crime rate is.

Perhaps the crime rate here is low precisely because criminal fear their victims might be armed. Criminals love easy targets.

I am Canadian. We have some of the strictest gun laws (especially pertaining to assault types - banned; full auto - banned; and autoloader - semi-automatic - handguns - heavily restricted). You must possess a Firearms Acquisition Certificate which is issued by the Feds following a background check. Firearms must be secured in a safe (checked by a local police officer) and any outside carry (except by special license) is forbidden. Still, with all that, 2 people killed and several wounded in Scarborough.

This is not to mean that I am in favour of every citizen walking around with a Glock on their hip. Just as "guns don't kill people, people kill people" "laws don't protect people, people protect people (police, military, etc.).

Thank you for this most compassionate post. The families of the victims and the survivors need comfort and concern, not pointless bickering.

Ambulance chasing "journalism". More lazy than inflammatory.

Allen, you did a fine job considering the strange nature of this story. True unbiased journalism at it's finest, regardless of what other people may say.

I kind of liked the story even though I am not religious, but when people pray, they do no harm, in fact it has been shown that their belief itself may have certain healing powers.

I don't believe there is a god, or other supernatural beings that are doing it, I believe that their prayer affects their alpha and beta waves (brain waves) in a positive way somehow. It makes them feel better. Some people feel better just knowing someone is praying for them.

Maybe it helps them organize their thoughts, I don't know. We now know that brain waves can be controlled to some extent with scientific devices to perform minor tasks like moving a computer cursor.

My point is this. If prayer helps people feel better, why mess with them. I know many religious people can be very pushy, and when they do I push back. But if someone wants to pray for themselves, you, or anyone else, why rain on their parade.

People that do that are just as bad as the pushy religious people. If I ever say, "God bless you", or something like that, it is to make them feel better.

Even though, I myself don't believe in supernatural forces, does not prevent me from feeling better if someone says that to me. In my mind, I know they are saying I wish you well. I have no problem with that.

To the victims, and your loved ones:

I wish you all a speedy recovery, and hope you can find the strength to cope with whatever losses that deranged idiot bestowed upon you.

To the deceased, requiem in pacem ! - rest in peace !

"Ambulance chasing 'journalism'"

The fact that Alan is raising important topics that you find discomforting is no reason to be making asinine comments.

Sometimes I troll a little too, but these guys are tactless. This is not the time, or place.

in fact it has been shown that their belief itself may have certain healing powers.

It has been shown even more times that their ridiculous beliefs have no healing powers at all.

In fact, i know some children who were prayed over (instead of taken to a doctor for the care they should have gotten) and the family (like so many other ignorant BuyBull morons) sat and watched their children die. Nice!

Alan, seriously, don't take it to heart. Not only are you one of my favorite reporters on NBCNews.com, you're one of the few who truly cares enough about his job to actually read the comments and reply to them. That, right there, is going the extra mile, my friend.

Being a cyber-journalist, I'm sure you're well accustomed to the fact that people on the Internet just seem to go out of their way to disagree with everything and everyone. I admire the fact that you cope with that so well, but again, you shouldn't believe for a second that these overly negative comments truly reflect the quality of your writing.

thanks Alan for being ...generous enough with your time...to write with the rest of us...show's we have some media people...that are people just like the rest of us...kumbaya...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYJMtn6IJeE

@Bernitch

Why do you feel the need to be so inflammatory and insulting with your remarks? It is fine that you do not believe in a god, but why do you need to criticize those that do? A greater part of having any kind of useful discussion and anyone having respect for your argument is to have some modicum of respect for the individual you are talking/debating with. Throwing insults to their religion/beliefs/scriptures or the like is not conducive to the discussion.

I am sorry for the rant, but I get tired of seeing people treat what is sacred to certain individuals with such disrespect.

Mike. I agree with your point. But we have free will. God given. We can do right or we can do wrong. The society has changed and what was wrong is now being considered right. noone would think 60 years ago of having a baby and laying on a table to die but that is what does happen now. Its called a womans choice.I will just use that one for now.

God gave us a set of laws to live by. And we are given free will. We can do wrong or we can do right. But in the society of today, where no rules just right apply. do what you want as long as you dont hurt anyone but yourself. Well there are times when the attitudes of society run amok and incidents like this happens.

i see it in the lack of understanding about God. God did not cause this. people caused this. Lack of gun control? go on the internet. You can make a bomb with little or no trouble. If all guns were outlawed, then guns would flow from mexico like the drugs do now. because you would pay probably 10 times what the gun is worth. and who would pay that price? the drug pushers, the gangs, etc. average americans would have no guns. When i was in Germany, the in the state of bavaria, ALL GUNS ARE OUTLAWED. Nobody is allowed to own a gun. Well it did not stop the Bader Meinhoff, from making bombs and killing people.

Its sad that people are so confused about God. When something happens they rant against Him. He did not cause this. the Presbyterian Church did not cause this. Sorry, the Christians in this country do not strap bombs on themselves and blow up a hundred people in the local walmart.

And there are enough Chritians straddling the fence. So i can understand the animousity. However if any finger needs to be pointed it should be at the society of all the way past the line freedoms, that allow people to commit into doing acts like this.

We have what two cousins missing from Iowa still? How many parents killed their children this week? How many more babies are going to die in hot cars?

The people of the US are too self centered to care or worry about anyone else. they just worry about themselves. the no holds barred freedoms have taken the society in absolutely the wrong direction.

PS. there is a way back. His way. NOW LET THE BARFING ABOUT GOD BEGIN.

@thomas-819915

There are sooo many things wrong with your post. But I'll just point out one and it won't even be "BARFING" about god.

The people of the US are too self centered to care or worry about anyone else.

People of the US are very upset and sympathetic and offering up support for the families over this tragedy. That's not self-centered.

In today's news they reported about the bus monitor who was bullied receiving numerous outpourings of support and gifts. That's not self-centered.

I know of U.S. teens that went to Japan to help out the victims of last year's Tsunami. That's not self-centered.

Every day the people of the US reach out to help others in need, in this country and worldwide. We are one of the most giving nations around. So your claim of "self-centered" is an irresponsible generalization and a shameful disregard for all those who give of themselves to help others, sometimes with their lives.

You sum up by saying there's "a way back". I'm thinking going backwards is going the wrong way.

someone who is not well in the head

You just described a lot of mainstream christians.

...and a lot of mainstream atheists, as well.

...and a lot of humans.

OK, Sailcat, evolution/Creationism (Christianity) has nothing to do with any of these horrible acts which have been happening with increased frequency in the last few years. It is just coincidental that evil acts, like mass shootings, pedophilia, gang killings, drug killings, etc., have mushroomed since God was removed from public life.(1960's) And there is no slowing in sight. Try to reason this, if you have the ability. A person who knows he is created in the image of God and is answerable to his Creator for the things he does, who knows there is an eternity to be spent in peace or torment, that it does not end with physical death, will think long and hard before throwing his eternity away on a moment of anger, hatred or revenge. On the other hand, one who does not believe in the existence of a Supreme Power that holds his destiny, one who believes he is answerable to no one and there are no consequences beyond his own death, is much more likely to give in to the carnal desire to hurt or avenge. Not only has our society removed the governing God factor from kids' lives, but the external anti-God factors have risen proportionately. Sex, violence, obscenity are the modern-day friends of even our youngest members of society. It has long been said that life imitates "art." Monkey see, monkey do. How's that for a bit of Darwinism? You can make all the denials you wish, you can mock and denegrade to your heart's content, but the truth is as plain as the nose on your face. If you choose to bury your head in the perverbial sand and not accept the proof, more the fool you. Your little opinion, as mine, really amounts to nothing, no matter how important you think yourself to be.

Really???? Maybe the fact that the population has grown has something to do with the violence. Or....look at Islamic fundamentalists. They believe in the same god (as it is an Abrahamic religion). Yet they choose to do violence in the name of god. Your argument lacks much credibility. As an anti-theist, you assume that I am incredibly evil, no?

"A person who knows he is created in the image of God and is answerable to his Creator for the things he does, who knows there is an eternity to be spent in peace or torment, that it does not end with physical death, will think long and hard before throwing his eternity away on a moment of anger, hatred or revenge."

So the reason you are a christian is because of the threat of after-life violence? That is all by itself a compelling reason to reject your mythical deity and its cult in favor of reason and genuine morality.

tiredofthelunacy

OK, Sailcat, evolution/Creationism (Christianity) has nothing to do with any of these horrible acts which have been happening with increased frequency in the last few years. It is just coincidental that evil acts, like mass shootings, pedophilia, gang killings, drug killings, etc., have mushroomed since God was removed from public life.(1960's) And there is no slowing in sight.

If you are tired of the lunacy then you could begin by trying to stop your own.

It is not removal of God from the public space at fault for the perception that violence is on the increase, it's the technological ability to report distant violent acts happening in wide spread locations all at once and immediately that is creating the illusion that there is more violence than there actual is.

If you want to see real violence check out the middle ages or even more ancient civilizations...hell, just check out the development and history of the United States. Are you saying that God was more present than today during the lynching period in the south or the massive slaughter of indigenous peoples?

I find your arguments facile and not helpful even to your own cause.

I find it interesting that the most vocal fundamentalist Christians posting here (or those whose quotes formed the basis of this thread) seem to be obsessed with the "punishment" aspect of Abrahamic religions, and not the "love and acceptance" aspect.

So many so-called "Christians" spend most of their time quoting the Old Testament as opposed to the New.

I suspect it has much to do with their natural authoritarian nature. Fundamentalist religious beliefs are all about authoritarianism, and I suspect that has much to do with why some people prefer fundamentalism. Because it validates what they already beklieve.

Severed Head in a Jar,

Bingo.

Cain can't blame it on video games or certain television programs - murder's been around a lot longer than that stuff has, tho the species that was "made in god's image" seems to love killing it's own more than any other species on the planet.

yet Michael Moore pointed out in bowling for columbine that guns indeed do not kill people as evidenced by canada having way more guns and a mere fraction of the homicides in the us. If guns don't kill people,neither do movies/video games

And just how its it that the NRA runs the country? If they did, how did Obama get elected? Four more years of Obama and he will outlaw guns, the NRA and any remaining freedom we have.

Obama doesn't want to outlaw your guns. He's loosened gun laws since he became President. Stop listening to the nutjobs that run the NRA. They are a bunch of paranoid loons.

NRA members have very low rates of gun violence crimes compared to the legal gun owners, and have a spotless record in comparison to the unlawful gun owners.

The NRA bashers are "pointing their gun" in the wrong direction. Crazy is crazy, and will find a way to kill crowds of people if they want to. Explosive devices, chemical weapons, zip guns, and all other weaponry including silencers are relatively simple to make. If I wanted to, I could make a chemical weapon, or create a chemical explosion in the next 5 min.

Canada, and Mexico both have strict gun laws. Throwing out the constitutions allowance for citizens to arm themselves would be a lot like playing Russian Roulette; sooner or later, a gun will go off anyway.

If that day should ever come, I would prefer to be able to reach for my own weapon.

If you could remove words like stupid, ignorant, idiot, etc from these posts, there wouldn't be any lefties on here. They don't know how to express an intelligent, non-inflammatory opinion.

LOL. Tiredofthelunacy. You just insinuated that all lefties are stupid and unintelligent. How is that not inflammatory? That makes you just as bad as the people you're trying to remove from this board.

FactoftheMatter-1981569 It's true. And only you mentioned removing people from this board.

The Irony here; Every time I read political stories on MSNBC, Nearly all conservative comments are collapsed.

That is what a child would do. It's the "It's mine, give it back......whack".

That's actually pretty sad when adults cannot even discuss things on a message board.

I just don't even try anymore, and a lot of discussions don't get discussed because the only ones there anymore are nothing more than collapsing trolls. As if that's not enough, the ones that hang in there get banned.

It's kind of like walking into a bar to meet girls, and there are 40 guys and not a girl in sight. Have fun with yourselves.

How's this for an intelligent, non-inflammatory opinion: The Second Amendment does not exist merely to protect the pathetic fantasies of immature wannabe Rambos. Assault weapons, .50 cal sniper rifles, and "street sweeper" style shotguns must be banned.

michael: Four more years of Obama and he will outlaw guns, the NRA and any remaining freedom we have.

Why do cowards always resort to lies to try and make a point?

If I wanted to, I could make a chemical weapon, or create a chemical explosion in the next 5 min.

Aside from the fact that it would take you longer than that...you can't exactly carry a concealed bomb and expect any constitutional protections like you can with a gun.

Guns don't kill people... but they make it real convenient for people to kill people.

In fact some guns make it really convenient for one person to kill scores of people.

Guns are a potentially dangerous technology and as such they should be manged and licensed just like a car and the people whom, drive them. As it is people can buy guns and not have to demonstrate any knowledge or competency in their use. Would you hand the keys to your car to a teen who has never driven before? Why not?

As far as the arguments that people can killed just as easily with a hammer or a knife go, we have have to ask why you would prefer a gun then?

Also the idea that gun ownership is based on the idea that they provide a protection from the tyranny of government, the present state of weaponry the government has at its disposal kind of makes that point moot doesn't it? Got any rocket launchers or air to air missiles in your garage or bunker?

and the people whom, drive them.

Great grammar, cul...get more coffee.

NRA members have very low rates of gun violence crimes compared to the legal gun owners, and have a spotless record in comparison to the unlawful gun owners

People who handle nuclear weapons have very low rates of using them.

I think we should give everyone in the general population access to nuclear weapons.

...and that is only your opinion, not some overriding truth we should all fall to our knees over

Believe what you choose, but acknowledge the fact that millions have died for your beliefs and they aren't beliefs we all hold. Just like the gun owners, you imagine because you are "sane" and "reasonable" (by your own standards incidentally, not societies) the rest of society should absorb the pain and illness that your religion not only attracts but the hatred it inspires in others who have a different sort of religious view.

Because you insist upon dragging your beliefs into everything this society does you threaten us all. Realize our tolerance when you proselytize. In a primitive tribe you would have been stoned to death long ago. You are a threat to our very way of life because of your blind insistence in the christian god.

Who's to say "our way of life" applies to everyone of us? Who is we? Are "we" all supposed to believe as you do then? Is that not itself a threat? Our society is a mixed bag and with that people are going to bunt heads. It's life and you can choose to believe in something or nothing at all- at least you have the freedom to do so.

That's right. Shootings like this still happen in countries with stricter gun control than we have ever had, at the same rate as here. If you take all the guns away (by gun control laws) then only the police, military and criminals will be armed, and there will be no stopping any of them.

Michael-380693 - Shootings like this still happen in countries with stricter gun control than we have ever had, at the same rate as here.

You're not only wrong, but there's no need to look at other countries since we can directly compare between states within our own culture.

The states which have stricter gun laws than Colorado have a far lower rate of firearm deaths:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/01/the-geography-of-gun-deaths/69354/

Firearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation. Though the sample sizes are small, we find substantial negative correlations between firearm deaths and states that ban assault weapons (-.45), require trigger locks (-.42), and mandate safe storage requirements for guns (-.48).

Guns don't kill people, they just make it a whole lot easier.

......especially when you've got an AR-15, 100-round clips, and 6,000 rounds of ammo.

And all legally purchased in a state with very lax gun laws.

That widely reported detail about the shooter having 6,000 rounds of ammunition--I really don't see how that's relevant to the case. Surely he didn't bring 6,000 rounds with him to the theater; that would have weighed a ton. I doubt that he actually fired more than a couple hundred rounds at most. So to those who are advocating restricting ammunition purchases: How would that have prevented this tragedy? Or are you folks saying that ammo purchases should be limited to something less than 200 rounds? I'd like to know how that could ever be enforced. Some people even reload their own used cartridge casings (essentially, "make their own bullets," to you anti-gun people), in case you didn't know.

Hmmm, this sounds like the claim that 90 pct of all statstictics are made up on the spot. Can you back up this assertion ? My anecdotal experirience is that these events occur more often in the US.

That widely reported detail about the shooter having 6,000 rounds of ammunition--I really don't see how that's relevant to the case. Surely he didn't bring 6,000 rounds with him to the theater; that would have weighed a ton.

Given the armor he was wearing, he didn't plan a "suicide by cops" but rather to survive this incident and possibly use his remaining ammo for other events.

The idea of having stricter gun regulations is not to eliminate the incidence of deaths by gunfire, the idea is to slow it down...make it less likely. Just as checking the competency of a car driver before we issue a license to drive lowers the probability that they will cause a potentially fatal accident.

As it is any inexperienced and incompetent kook can buy as many high powered guns and ammunition as they want no questions asked. Does that seem even remotely reasonable to you?

In my previous post, I was specifically addressing the call by some for restrictions on ammo purchases. I made no reference to imposing tougher restrictions on gun purchases. Reasonable or not, though, the nation's Supreme Court has ruled that private gun ownership is a constitutionally protected right. The constitution deliberately says nothing about how many guns we're allowed to own, nor does it limit us to owning 18th-century type, single-shot, muzzle-loaders (though some would like to interpret it that way). If you or anyone else thinks those laws are unreasonable, then do your best to get the constitution amended; good luck to you. Until then, what you or I think is "reasonable" has no bearing on anything, as we live in a nation of laws, not a dictatorship.

If you or anyone else thinks those laws are unreasonable, then do your best to get the constitution amended; good luck to you. Until then, what you or I think is "reasonable" has no bearing on anything, as we live in a nation of laws, not a dictatorship.

That's a good idea...maybe it is time to change the constitutional right to bear arms to a more limited and reasonable condition. Maybe it's time to get rid of the 2nd amendment altogether since the idea that that the right to bear arms obviously has long past the possible reality of it being used to prevent a tyrannical government given the level of armament the government has at its disposal, unless of course you want the Supreme court to abandon all reasonableness and allow for the personal right to own nukes.

I find it interesting that you can look at the constitution and not consider reasonableness a necessary inherent quality. When you say "we live in a nation of laws", don't you think those laws ought to based on reason and not on some arbitrary and injudicious premise?

Many of our laws are worded in a such a way that they are subject differing interpretations. In those cases, certainly everyone would agree that a "reasonable" interpretation of the law should prevail. The only problem is, everybody feels that their view is reasonable, and it's the other guy who is being unreasonable. Under our system of government, it is the job of our judiciary to interpret the constitution. And after getting their constituents' input, it is the job of our politicians to set any necessary limitations on the rights afforded us by the constitution. In the case of the right to bear arms, that has all been done. That's why we are only allowed to own handguns, rifles, and shotguns, not machine guns, sawed-off shotguns, or heavy weaponry. If the system works properly, it is the citizens' opinions that determine what is reasonable. You have every right, of course, to petition your congressman and try to get the law changed. I have to conclude, though, that the gun laws we have on the books at any given time are what the majority of people have deemed to be reasonable.

Why don't we get rid of the trash in the media instead of the guns. Guns have been around a lot longer than the media crap, and you didn't have shootings then like you do today.

tiredofthelunacy

Why don't we get rid of the trash in the media instead of the guns. Guns have been around a lot longer than the media crap, and you didn't have shootings then like you do today.

Do you actually think about what you post before you post it?

Violence was much worse in the past. Could you explain to us us why towns in the old west eventually got around to hiring sheriffs and created laws saying people couldn't carry guns around in public? What on earth would make them do that I wonder? Surely there was less violence than today.

Maybe you're right, tired, maybe the media is to blame.

And do you know what was one of the first forms of media? The book. And do you know what the best-selling book of all time is?

Uh oh.

Now I understand all this mayhem!

Both sides are being pretty loony. But I think the 300,000 + pages of gun laws we have on the books on the federal, state, and local levels as well as the various bylaws are rather excessive.

Stringent, regular, mandatory training, and at an earlier age is what I think will help. Then they could probably take a lot of the current laws off the books.

do all the training you want.... won't stop some sick f*%k from doing what this person did now will it??

So, Dr, I would assume you are a left-wing freedom-of-speech extrapolator, right? But you would shut the right up because they don't agree with you. Sounds like "equal rights for all" isn't exactly what you believe, after all, huh?

Erik-3293517

do all the training you want.... won't stop some sick f*%k from doing what this person did now will it??

True, but at least the crazy person might meet some quality people who talk some sense, he won't feel so alone and get his ya-ya's out another way instead like riding a motorcycle.

There is an increased possibility that the craziness will be spotted, and dealt with by other shooters, or an instructor.

The genie is truly out of the bottle when there are 250,000,000 guns in America. It's too late to get rid of them. Guns and the carnage from their illegal use are even spilling over into Canada and Mexico.

The founders wanted arms to be available for a militia at the ready. A musket for everyone. Single shot, 3 rounds a minute if you were really good. If they had known that 25000 Americans die per year by gunfire through murder, suicide and accidents, (the same number that died in the revolutionary war), the second ammendment would not exist.

tiredofthelunacy

So, Dr, I would assume you are a left-wing freedom-of-speech extrapolator, right? But you would shut the right up because they don't agree with you. Sounds like "equal rights for all" isn't exactly what you believe, after all, huh?

The popular right wing (especially it's religious functionaries) will be listened to as soon as they stop pushing FOX type induced lies or Biblical authoritarianism and bother to educate themselves beyond such puerile propaganda.

You have every right to spew whatever nonsense you want, but that doesn't mean you have the right to be considered rational...that, like respect, has to be earned.

The idea is not to make guns illegal, it is to regulate them and the people who want to purchase and use them.

Right now anyone with the cash can walk in and buy whatever firearms and ammo they desire and never have to show competency or much of anything else in most places. That is plainly stupid and irresponsible and needs to stop.

Canada with strict gun laws has a rate of 4.78 per100,100 compared to the US rate of 10.7.

'Nuff said.

Of course, that's how you get the attention from both sides. Media is there to push buttons anymore, not report facts or finding.

People are dead, a man is to blame for it. That's all that matters and people should mourn as they see fit.

Agreed, CaerRaven.

One often feels that there is a faction that has never read the news and just drops by to comment on it's irrelevance. I don't think the media does much of a job reporting facts these days, but this piece is a blog. Blog's by their very nature are opinion pieces. Perhaps the earlier posters in this thread need a bit of education on the various aspects of journalistic reporting.

Not everything is hard news. Blogs are not hard news.

You sceme to be to be making right wing hay yourself.

It is impossible to know with certainty whether or not society had an effect on his thought processes, but revenge is the most common motivator for mass murderers. The snap moment in someone's psyche, does not necessarily mean an instant blind rage responce. It can be the beginning of planning and implementation. The length of the planning process that went into this horiffic act tends to indicate a lack of mental disorder, and add weight to the revenge hypothesis. Guns make it easy to kill, if you have the will, it is much harder to kill with a knife or your bare hands. (Mass murder body counts without a gun or explosives are far smaller.) Of course it is entirely possible that he wanted instant fame (that would be a societal effect) like the thousands who vie for non scripted TV exposure. He was covered in body armor and he is, atypically, still alive so he can see the impact he has had upon history.

@Michael,

Liberal societies beliefs are that know one is responsible for any wrong or immoral act, that left to our own devices that we are a very sane and peaceful society. It's the guns fault that people are murdered, it's those over sized soft drinks that are making us fat ect., as if these inanimate objects posses power beyond our control. So, if we get rid of guns and over sized soft drinks, we will be a sane, crime free, skinny society? CC. Michael Bloomberg.

@MRZ

So you don't think that a sugar rush is real?? Or that a cup of sugar in a drink won't pack on the calories and get you started on a career of obesity??

Do you think a person could shoot 70 people with a handgun??

He had an assault weapon with a large clip...that's the reason soo many were shot. Deal with the truth! It was an assault rifle made to kill a lot of people...period!!

You're right, he did plan it, but the guns he had available certainly helped. Apparently you missed the article explaining that the gun he used was one specifically lobbied by the NRA to have un-unbanned....because apparently Assault Rifles are an everyday household item....

they are EXACTLY for this kind of killing. They aren't for hunting...they don't qualify for self defense....it's a murder weapon.

...they don't qualify for self defense...it's a murder weapon.

I lived in Los Angeles during the Rodney King riots, and at the time, one of my family members owned an AR-15 like the one used in this crime. I can assure you that if any rioters had broken into our home, intent on causing mayhem, that rifle most definitely would have been used in self defense. Even with the AR-15 and a couple of pistols in the house, we felt vulnerable knowing that the police would not be able to respond if an emergency arose. We had only ourselves to depend on. The city was under attack. If you haven't experienced it, you can't know what an unsettling feeling that is.

"...that rifle most definitely would have been used in self defense."

And the high velocity rounds fired by your AR-15 would have gone straight through the soft tissue of your targets, through the wall of your house, continued traveling down the street, and into the house of a neighbor who might also be struck and killed. Assault rifles are pointless and useless for self defense when other weapons would be more effective and pose less of a hazard to the community. Furthermore, the 100 round drum magazine that the Aurora gunman used to equip his assault weapon defies any rational attempt to justify it.

The Second Amendment does not exist merely to prop up the pathetic fantasies of wannabe Rambos. Assault weapons, .50 cal sniper rifles, and "street sweeper" style shotguns must be banned. It is the right thing to do.